Was the Olivet Discourse completely fulfilled in 70A.D.?

[Brother Les]

by twospirits

Dispence 58 said,

The question is: If it is the "whole world" then has the Gospel been preached to the "whole world"?

This is a good and important question. Depending on the context of how the word "world" is used is of course the key to its proper understanding. But I believe in many passages it means the entire world.

The question is specific..

Was the Gospel preached to the world?

Jesus said that 'The End' would come when The gospel has been preached to the world.

The Apostle Paul said that the Gospel Had been preached to all the world ( he has stated to such in 4 different places) and to every living creature.

[tomret]

by dlspence_58
The question is: If it is the "whole world" then has the Gospel been preached to the "whole world"? The post-mils might say no, but if it is a partial pret, post-mil, how do you reconcile the two positions?

To add to what Dave and Brother Les have said, the signs given prior to Mt 24:14 have been “seen” by every generation since they were given, but verse 14 is special - when this is first accomplished is a one time event after which "the end will come." What end? The end of the age they asked about in Mt 24:3, which would be at Christ's Parousia.

Jesus said "whole world," Paul in Ro 10:18 said "ends of the world." Sounds like the total world under consideration does it not? I don't see there is any reconciliation of positions to be made. Rather, it boils down to whether one accepts Paul's multiple confirmations that Jesus' command had been fulfilled or not.

[dlspence_58]

I figured I'd get the response I did from the FPs regarding the passage in question. I would also like to hear from some PPs.

Since I don't want to drag up the same old dialogue time after time I want to ask the FPs this:

Since you believe the Gospel had been preached to the whole world by AD 70, then what is the purpose of preaching the Gospel today? And...(from another post), why celebrate the Lord's Supper if the end has come? Why do we send out missionaries if the end has come? Why aren't we better off just dying if the end has come? Why is there still evil and death if the end has come? The postmils- believe the world will be Christianized/evangelized, why continue to preach "this Gospel" if the end has come? And note the "this Gospel" is as demonstrative as "this generation."

And please....don't tell me the NC did not come into effect until AD 70. The only thing that happened then was the destruction of Jeruslam and the temple (just as Jesus predicted). The end has not yet come!

Anxiously anticipating your responses...I just hope they are not the same old worn out ones!

David

[Brother Les]

by dlspence_58
Since you believe the Gospel had been preached to the whole world by AD 70, then what is the purpose of preaching the Gospel today? And...(from another post), why celebrate the Lord's Supper if the end has come? Why do we send out missionaries if the end has come? Why aren't we better off just dying if the end has come? Why is there still evil and death if the end has come? The postmils- believe the world will be Christianized/evangelized, why continue to preach "this Gospel" if the end has come? And note the "this Gospel" is as demonstrative as "this generation."

And please....don't tell me the NC did not come into effect until AD 70. The only thing that happened then was the destruction of Jeruslam and the temple (just as Jesus predicted). The end has not yet come!

Anxiously anticipating your responses...I just hope they are not the same old worn out ones!

David

Why do we do what we do? Expand The Kingdom of God, unto Life. The OC Kingdom (pre AD70) was dormant and only brought the curse of death, but a Promise of a future Resurrection of The Elect. A Promise is only that. A will and Hope of a future payment. If you are 'Hoping' for a future giving of Salvation,(Resurrection from The Dead) then you have none now. You are dead in your Sins (by your beliefs) and God has nothing to do with you. God will not be near Sin and that if what you seem to claim to be -sinful- (How many times can Christ be Sacrificed?) Judeizers of yesteryear wanted to stay with The Law (of Death) and Christian Judeizers are of the same ilk. Looking and not seeing, listening and not hearing. Staying in chains of their own making. God will not force you to Live, but softly calls and many will die from the lack of Knowledge.

[twospirits]

David said,
And please....don't tell me the NC did not come into effect until AD 70. The only thing that happened then was the destruction of Jeruslam and the temple (just as Jesus predicted). The end has not yet come!

I agree that the "end" has not yet come. And we must ask what "end" is Matthew speaking of? We read in Matt. 28-18-20, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even unto the "end" of the world/age Amen.” Greek; "tes sunteleias tou aionos.” The Greek word "end" here in this passage is "sunteleias," which signifies to bring "completely to an end"--to finish completely all prophecy and events. When the word "telos," end is given, it signifies "the limit" of which a person, thing or event ceases to be up to that point in time. As for example Matt. 24-13, he that endures unto the "end"---(to that point of what the context speaks of). In the very next verse "the gospel of the kingdom" shall be preached in all the world for "a witness" unto all nations (peoples), and then shall the end (telos) come." This passage is unique in scripture. Jesus then goes on and gives the rest of the prophecy beginning with "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel "standing in the holy place (1 Cor. 3-16-17; 2 Thess. 2-4).

Note that Jesus prophesied to his audience that the temple would be destroyed in Luke chapter 21 while on the temple grounds. Whereas Matthew chapters 24-25 and Mark 13 both contain a discourse which occurs "later in the evening on the Mount of Olives." This is important as to why the disciples asked Jesus in Matt. 24-3, that question in that particular order. Because of what he had said earlier; "You shall not see me until---(23-39),---the temple shall be destroyed---(24-2). So they asked, saying, tell us, "when" shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of "thy coming," and of the end of the age?" It's completion of what Jesus spoke about. (Greek; tes sunteleias tou aionos). Note here, the word end is "sunteleias," not "telos."

These same words are used in Jesus' Great commission in Matt. 28-19-20, "---the end of the age." (tes sunteleias tou anoinos). We read in Matt. 24-22, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened." What does Jesus mean by "those days" that will be shortened, lest no flesh be saved? This indicates that certain events of "those days" of the "telos" shall be shortened to bring in the "sunteleia" of the age, Jesus' second coming; lest no flesh be saved. And "no flesh" does not mean just Jewish humanity, but rather it means all humankind.

No space left, God bless---Twospirits

[dlspence_58]

Hey TS, I hear you brother. Good grasp of the Greek. I, too, have noticed the use of sunteleia in the passage in question. The FPs seem to limit everything to the AD 70 arena including God's judgment and God's final redemption.

You had stated somewhere that you were not a dispy and neither do I hold to that. I am a futurist, however. Your website I believe says "realized eschatology." Could you elaborate more on that and your eschatological position? Maybe do it in a personal message so we don't get off track here. Just click on my name and then where it says send personal message click that. You'll have to enter a subject in the subject line.

Thanks. David

[Brother Les]

ts
Note that Jesus prophesied to his audience that the temple would be destroyed in Luke chapter 21 while on the temple grounds. Whereas Matthew chapters 24-25 and Mark 13 both contain a discourse which occurs "later in the evening on the Mount of Olives." This is important as to why the disciples asked Jesus in Matt. 24-3, that question in that particular order. Because of what he had said earlier; "You shall not see me until---(23-39),---the temple shall be destroyed---(24-2). So they asked, saying, tell us, "when" shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of "thy coming," and of the end of the age?" It's completion of what Jesus spoke about. (Greek; tes sunteleias tou aionos). Note here, the word end is "sunteleias," not "telos."

So, you are saying that Luke 21 has been 'fulfilled', but Matt24 and Mark 13 have not?

These same words are used in Jesus' Great commission in Matt. 28-19-20, "---the end of the age." (tes sunteleias tou anoinos). We read in Matt. 24-22, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened." What does Jesus mean by "those days" that will be shortened, lest no flesh be saved? This indicates that certain events of "those days" of the "telos" shall be shortened to bring in the "sunteleia" of the age, Jesus' second coming; lest no flesh be saved. And "no flesh" does not mean just Jewish humanity, but rather it means all humankind.

God bless---Twospirits

Why worry about any 'Flesh' in a futruest paradiym, if 'The Flesh' will be 'changed' to an imortal body 'flesh'?

So to you, 'The Great Commission' (is there a difference between 'Great' and plain o'l commision?) is on going (even though Paul said all the world has heard the Gospel) of Matt 28:19-20 for the end of the Mosaic Age. Is there going to be another Temple bulit of Matt 24 and Mark 13, to be destroyed again and where do you find this Temple made with hands said to be built again and again (the Jews may not accept 'their' Messiah, after 'coming' a third, or forth or fifth time). you make it seem as those prophets of the OT and NT were sure mixed up on what they were declaring. It would make no sense what so ever for Jesus to speak of the end of 'a' Christian Age' (NC Age does not end) when The Temple was still standing and the Mosaic Age was still in effect, but waxing old and fading away, while the Church was maturing and growing in understanding.The Prophets were always declaring an end to the Mosaic Covanant Age and now you have Jesus declaring an end of The Christian New Covenant Age? The prophets of the OT never declare the end of the NC.
This is more of your dispensational playbook gymnastics teaching. Quacks like a duck... it is a dispensationalist, you are, quack...quack...

[tomret]

by dlspence_58
Since I don't want to drag up the same old dialogue time after time I want to ask the FPs this:
Since you believe the Gospel had been preached to the whole world by AD 70, then what is the purpose of preaching the Gospel today?

We believe Paul's confirmation that the Gospel had been preached throughout the inhabited earth as Jesus instructed. To justify your paradigm you try to see a difference between 'inhabited earth' and 'whole/all inhabited earth.' In modern English is there a difference between 'planet' and 'entire planet?' Between 'world of sports' and 'wide world of sports?' Between 'United States' and 'all these United States?' Of course not, those adjectives are for emphasis, but are not technically necessary. So, without some qualifier indicating less than whole, 'inhabited earth' as understood in the 1st century was the same as 'whole/all inhabited earth.' But, if you accept the words of Jesus and Paul, your point is irrelevant anyway. In His instructions Jesus used emphasis like; whole world, all the nations, all the world, to all creation. Paul's confirmations used emphasis like; all the earth, ends of the world, to all the nations, all the world, was proclaimed in all creation. It is inescapable that Paul, using same or similar emphasis as Jesus, confirmed in his time that Jesus' instructions had been carried out.

The purpose of continued preaching of the Gospel is to make it known to all cultures beyond those in the 1st century inhabited earth, that is throughout the world (modern definition).

[twospirits]

Tomret said,

We believe Paul's confirmation that the Gospel had been preached throughout the inhabited earth as Jesus instructed.

I agree that in the 1st century the gospel was preached to all nations in the inhabited world, i.e. the Roman Empire.

So, without some qualifier indicating less than whole, 'inhabited earth' as understood in the 1st century was the same as 'whole/all inhabited earth.'

I agree that without "a qualifier" indicating less than the whole inhabited earth, it equals to "the inhabited earth." Yes, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth (the inhabited earth, not just the tribes of Israel) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24-30). "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pieced him; and all tribes of the earth (the inhabited world not just the tribes of Israel) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen" (Rev. 1-7).

It is inescapable that Paul, using same or similar emphasis as Jesus, confirmed in his time that Jesus' instructions had been carried out.

Again I agree this to be scriptural and true.

The purpose of continued preaching of the Gospel is to make it known to all cultures beyond those in the 1st century inhabited earth, that is throughout the world (modern definition).

That is exactly my point I tried to make with the prophetic text of Matthew. That the prophecy Jesus gave was a panoramic view or history beginning from Pentecost, to 70 A.D. and on to the "sunteliea of the age." So they asked, saying, tell us, "when" shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of "thy coming," and of the end of the age?" The "completion" of the prophecy that Jesus spoke about. (Greek; tes sunteleias tou aionos). As I said,note here, the word end is "sunteleias," not "telos." These same words are used in Jesus' Great commission in Matt. 28-19-20, "---to the end of the age." (tes sunteleias tou anoinos).

BL Said, So, you are saying that Luke 21 has been 'fulfilled', but Matt24 and Mark 13 have not?

Like Matthew and Mark, Luke gives a panoramic view from beginning to end. But with Luke the majority of the text focuses on Jerusalem's destruction and fate of the Jews till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21-24). From verse 25 forward it speaks of the times to Jesus' coming.

No space left to answer your questions,assumptions, and things you say I said but have not. The majority of your posts show this. You are only making a fool out of yourself by doing this.

God bless---Twospirits

[tomret]

by twospirits
I agree that without "a qualifier" indicating less than the whole inhabited earth, it equals to "the inhabited earth." Yes, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth (the inhabited earth, not just the tribes of Israel) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24-30). "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pieced him; and all tribes of the earth (the inhabited world not just the tribes of Israel) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen" (Rev. 1-7).

Thanks for agreeing with Paul that in his time the Gospel had been preached in all the oikoumene. But, in Mt 24:30 and Re 1:7 'earth' comes from ge which should be rendered 'land,' specifically land of Judea and the tribes there, those that pierced Him.

(As a side note, you've got the quote function down, but note my Scripture citations. Using a colon instead of a dash to separate chapter and verse allows placing the cursor over the citation causing box to pop up showing the text. Then if desired, clicking 'more' opens new window to view text in context. Very handy!)

The purpose of continued preaching of the Gospel is to make it known to all cultures beyond those in the 1st century inhabited earth, that is throughout the world (modern definition).

That is exactly my point I tried to make with the prophetic text of Matthew. That the prophecy Jesus gave was a panoramic view or history beginning from Pentecost, to 70 A.D. and on to the "sunteliea of the age." So they asked, saying, tell us, "when" shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of "thy coming," and of the end of the age?" The "completion" of the prophecy that Jesus spoke about. (Greek; tes sunteleias tou aionos). As I said ,note here, the word end is "sunteleias," not "telos." These same words are used in Jesus' Great commission in Matt. 28-19-20, "---to the end of the age." (tes sunteleias tou anoinos).

AD70 was the "sunteliea of the age," the Old Covenant age, which was near vanishing (Heb 8:13), and which did vanish when the temple fell. Luke was very specific that the destruction of Jerusalem would be when everything written would be fulfilled (Lk 21:22).

[kramden327]

I
Since you believe the Gospel had been preached to the whole world by AD 70, then what is the purpose of preaching the Gospel today?

Hi DL,
I never understand this logic. Just because it was preached to 'every creature under heaven', why would that mean it shouldn't continue to be preached in subsequent generations? The text never says stop preaching the Gospel once it has reached 'the entire world'.

I doubt you have ever heard any pret's say the Gospel doesn't need to be preached today.

[Brother Les]

No space left to answer your questions,assumptions, and things you say I said but have not. The majority of your posts show this. You are only making a fool out of yourself by doing this.

God bless---Twospirits

Thought for the Day: "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."
Confucius

TS,
your paradyim has a lack of foundation. You are saying that 'you' 'agree', with so much that has been written, as the last few posts show about first century events. And then you try to shift that to make it seem that these 'as events' will happen again in a futurest paradyim.You may 'think' that I am twisting your words around, but by reading what you are saying is no different from a dispensatalist teacher (minus a rapture). You 'see' a parenthsis 'church age', which is not scriptural. You look for a flesh and blood physical bodily poping out of the ground in the future, which is a twisting of a 'Hebreic Eastern Oriental Metephoric Language'. You are very wishy washy and your goal posts keep shifting around. I think that Tomret and Kramden would tell me if they thought that I was a fool (or misguided), but you, twospirits, I take that with a grain of salt. Your 'reasoning' of a 1948 biblical 'return' does not hold water and is really an anti-christ teaching of denial of the Mosaic Law fulfillment.