Was the Olivet Discourse completely fulfilled in 70A.D.?

[twospirits]

Tomret said,

Thanks for agreeing with Paul that in his time the Gospel had been preached in all the oikoumene. But, in Mt 24:30 and Re 1:7 'earth' comes from ge which should be rendered 'land,' specifically land of Judea and the tribes there, those that pierced Him.

The Greek word for "tribes" is phule, the Septuagint also used phule, but also in reference to non-Hebraic tribes and nations. To give here a few examples; Gen. 12:3, "---and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth (phulai tes ges) be blessed." This is also seen in Gen. 28:14 when the promise was given to Jacob. "---in thee and thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth (phulai tes ges) be blessed."

when the biblical text restricts phule with a qualifier like "of Egypt," this means that only this "one tribe" is meant. But when texts refer to "all the tribes of the earth," it means all the tribes of the earth (inhabited earth), and not just the 12 Jewish tribes of Israel and its land. So we can know that the tribes in Matt. 19:18 referred only to the 12 tribes of Israel, because the text says so, but there is no such qualifier in Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7. Just as there is no qualifier of the word "ges,” with "of Judea" or "of Jerusalem" to show that Jesus meant for "ges,” earth to refer only to the region around Jerusalem. If "ai phulai tes ges,” all the tribes of the earth mean "all the tribes of the land of Judea" as my preterist brothers claim, then they must point us to linguistic reasons in the context of the statement to support their claims.

AD70 was the "sunteliea of the age," the Old Covenant age, which was near vanishing (Heb 8:13), and which did vanish when the temple fell. Luke was very specific that the destruction of Jerusalem would be when everything written would be fulfilled (Lk 21:22).

/ages.

Yes it was the end (telos) of the Old Covenant age, but not the "sunteleia" of the earthly age/ages. "--but now once in the end (consummation/sunteleia) of the ages---." (Heb. 9:26). Note the words, "in" the end of these times, not at the "end" sunteleia of these ages. The "sunteleia" of the age is seen in Matt. 24:3; 28:20 and Matt. 13:39, the parable of the end of the age.

The end or "sunteleia" of the age comes after these events given us in Luke 21:24,"---Until the times of the Gentiles (nations trampling on Jerusalem) be fulfilled." "---blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness (all those to be saved come in) of the Gentiles (nations) be come in" (Romans 11:25). When all is fulfilled, the coming of Christ occurs, and the eternal state begins.

(Thanks for the tip on how to use scripture passages on the word processor).
God bless---Twospirits

[dlspence_58]

To justify your paradigm you try to see a difference between 'inhabited earth' and 'whole/all inhabited earth.'

Actually, I pointed out very clearly in the Scriptures I listed that there is a difference between inhabited earth and whole earth. You FPs are the ones who have restricted the use of the word to mean only inhabited earth, therefore justifying your paradigm.

[kramden327]

Actually, I pointed out very clearly in the Scriptures I listed that there is a difference between inhabited earth and whole earth. You FPs are the ones who have restricted the use of the word to mean only inhabited earth, therefore justifying your paradigm.

DL,
Matt 24:14 uses the word oikoumene which typically means a more localized application, no? Paul's teaching on the extent of the gospel uses words that speak of covering at least that scope and more ('in all the world' (kosmos) and 'every creature under heaven' and 'unto all the earth'). For Matt 24:14 to remain unfulfilled today, one would have to make oikoumene a more extensive description of "world" than 'in all the world' (kosmos) - Col 1:6 - or 'every creature under heaven' and 'unto all the earth - Rom 10:18 (ge)'. What's more extensive than 'every creature under heaven'??

Usually, the pret's take a beating for 'localizing' kosmos and ge. How could one read Paul's letters and conclude his description of the spread of the Gospel was more limited than Jesus' use of oikoumene in Matt 24:14?

Luke 2:1 helps us see the localized and time bound application of oikoumene. Are we still expecting Ceasar Augustus to tax the whole "world"?

Again, it's all based on the correct interpretation of "the end". So, let's drill down on that and Matt 24:14 takes care of itself.

What did the disciples mean by "the end of the age"?

[dlspence_58]

For Matt 24:14 to remain unfulfilled today, one would have to make oikoumene a more extensive description of "world" than 'in all the world' (kosmos) - Col 1:6 - or 'every creature under heaven' and 'unto all the earth - Rom 10:18 (ge)'. What's more extensive than 'every creature under heaven'??

Dave, You are the finest preterist I have ever engaged.

Matthew 24:14 in Greek: καὶ κηρυχθήσεται τοῦτο τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς βασιλείας ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ οἰκουμένῃ εἰς μαρτύριον πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν καὶ τότε ἥξει τὸ τέλος.

The word in bold is from holos, from which we get "whole." It is followed by the definite article and then oikoumene. From Vines: (a) of the whole inhabited world, Mat 24:14; Luk 4:5; 21:26; Rom 10:18; Hebrews 1:6; Rev 3:10; 16:14. "All the nations" sounds pretty extensive to me. There were certainly people living outside of the Roman Empire at the time of Christ were there not? There are certainly people today who need to hear the Gospel preached to them.

[tomret]

by twospirits
...but there is no such qualifier in Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7...If "ai phulai tes ges,” all the tribes of the earth mean "all the tribes of the land of Judea" as my preterist brothers claim, then they must point us to linguistic reasons in the context of the statement to support their claims.

Just prior to leaving the temple and presenting His Olivet discourse, Jesus condemned and pronounced woes on the scribes and Pharisees, the religious and national leaders of Jerusalem in Judea. In Mt 23:34-36 He told THEM that THEY would kill, crucify, and scourge the ones He would send, and be guilty of all the blood shed on earth. That is exactly what happened to many of His apostles and other first century saints. That persecution filled the measure of their guilt bringing the woes upon the generation of those He was speaking to. Fulfillment is confirmed by Re 18:24 "And in her [Babylon/Jerusalem] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." In this context the tribes that would mourn in Mt 24:30 & Re 1:7 were those that would directly incur the judgment wrath. Re 1:7 adds the qualifier "those who pierced Him."

I also suggest that anytime 'earth' in the Scriptures seemingly suggests planet earth, it is due to futurist/global bias of translators. If we try to understand Scripture as the original recipients did, land, ground, dirt makes better sense.

AD70 was the "sunteliea of the age," the Old Covenant age, which was near vanishing (Heb 8:13), and which did vanish when the temple fell. Luke was very specific that the destruction of Jerusalem would be when everything written would be fulfilled (Lk 21:22).

Yes it was the end (telos) of the Old Covenant age, but not the "sunteleia" of the earthly age/ages. "--but now once in the end (consummation/sunteleia) of the ages---." (Heb. 9:26). Note the words, "in" the end of these times, not at the "end" sunteleia of these ages. The "sunteleia" of the age is seen in Matt. 24:3; 28:20 and Matt. 13:39, the parable of the end of the age.

You are looking for differences where there are little or none. Dec. 31st will mark the completion (sunteleia) of 2009, let us hope we endure to that end (telos). And what about Lk 21:22?

The end or "sunteleia" of the age comes after these events given us in Luke 21:24,"---Until the times of the Gentiles (nations trampling on Jerusalem) be fulfilled." "---blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness (all those to be saved come in) of the Gentiles (nations) be come in" (Romans 11:25). When all is fulfilled, the coming of Christ occurs, and the eternal state begins.

Now you've lost me again. Are you speaking of the AD70 trampling, or a future one?

[twospirits]

Tomret said,

Fulfillment is confirmed by Re 18:24 "And in her [Babylon/Jerusalem] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." In this context the tribes that would mourn in Mt 24:30 & Re 1:7 were those that would directly incur the judgment wrath. Re 1:7 adds the qualifier "those who pierced Him."

I'm sorry, but you are not using proper exegesis here. When speaking of a "qualifier," in the text you mention, Mt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7, the qualifier is not "those who pierced him." In the Inspired texts, when it speaks concerning the Jewish tribes, it always makes that very clear throughout the Old and New Testament. I gave quite a few examples of this in my prior post. "All the tribes of "Israel" (the qualifier being Israel, and its land). All the tribes of "Judea" (Judea being the qualifier and its land). All the tribes of "Egypt" ( Egypt being the qualifier and its land).

Rev. 1:7, "Behold, he is coming with clouds, and every eye will see him, even they who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth (ai phulai tes ges) (the qualifier being the earth and its tribes and all its land) will mourn because of him." Rev. 5:9, "---redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe (phules) and tongue and people and nation---." Rev. 13:7, "---and authority was given him over every tribe (phulen), tongue and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him---." How about Rev. 14:6, the flying angel "having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth(the entire globe)---to every nation, tribe (phulen), tongue and people---." Rev. 7:4-8 where we see the sealing taking place "of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Are these the tribes of the earth? No. Why? Because it says so.

When texts refer to "all the tribes of the earth," it means all the tribes of the earth (the entire globe), and not just the 12 Jewish tribes of Israel. So we can know that the tribes in Matt. 19:18 referred only to the 12 tribes of Israel, because the text says so, but there is no such qualifier in Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7.

Now you've lost me again. Are you speaking of the AD70 trampling, or a future one?

Until the fullness of the Gentiles come in; i.e.all those to be saved from the NC to ?? From 70 A.D. history shows that Jerusalem has been trampled on in one way or another by the Gentiles (nations) and will continue until all those to be saved are saved.

The mistake of full preterists is their doctrine is made up under the assumption that the evidence they compiled gives them a pre 70 A.D. writing of the book of Revelation. But I have found strong evidence of a post 70 A.D. writing given in my article if one wishes to read it. http://www.freewebs.com/twospirits/Dati ... lation.pdf

[Brother Les]

ts
Until the fullness of the Gentiles come in; i.e.all those to be saved from the NC to ?? From 70 A.D. history shows that Jerusalem has been trampled on in one way or another by the Gentiles (nations) and will continue until all those to be saved are saved.

from your 1948 Israel is back in The Land paradiym, does that show to you (your paradiym) that the "times of the Gentiles' has been over for 61 years? Or do you think the Temple Mount of the OC needs to be in Jews (who are not all Israel) hands. Does that then start the rebuilding of a third Temple and start again of aniamal sacrifices? History has shown that the Jews did control the Temple mount after AD70 and Had started the 'third' Temple, but I think that many mishaps happend and ended than endevor. You are reading a lot of information 'inbetween the lines' on the verse "until the fullness of Gentiles come in. One of the main problems will your "Fullness of The Gentiles come in TO the NC" is that it is THE JEWS that must come into the NC First and by your pardiym Israel (the Jews) have not evern Started To come into The NC....

(I know you think that I am putting 'words in your post' that you are not saying.... what I am trying to do is logically think this out. ie. Jews to NC first, Gentiles to NC saecond ---betrothal----, then with both in the NC betrothal.... the marriage to YHWH by His Elect as one..... God is not respector of persons and all are equal in Christ.)

the Promises of the NC were given to all Israel and it is a broken Promise to 'israel' if only the Gentiles were in the NC. For 'Israel' must come first and all of the vestages of the OC (Judgments) must have been dealt with before the full 'coming' of the NC.

[twospirits]

BL said,

---You are reading a lot of information 'inbetween the lines' on the verse "until the fullness of Gentiles come in. One of the main problems will your "Fullness of The Gentiles come in TO the NC" is that it is THE JEWS that must come into the NC First and by your pardiym Israel (the Jews) have not evern Started To come into The NC....

Brother Les, PLEASE stop assuming (by reading in between the lines) what I post and what I'm thinking. I told you I am not a Dispy, but apparently, by your posts, I see you don't believe me. It is JESUS who said "your house (your nation, not just the temple) is left to you desolate." Is that still not happening today? The nations against her, and terrorism constantly occurring? Biblically speaking, is that not (Gentiles,i.e. nations) trampling on Jerusalem, i.e.their nation? Yes, this is what "desolation" means in scripture. Death and violence upon the people and the land.

(I know you think that I am putting 'words in your post' that you are not saying.... what I am trying to do is logically think this out. ie. Jews to NC first, Gentiles to NC saecond ---betrothal----, then with both in the NC betrothal.... the marriage to YHWH by His Elect as one..... God is not respector of persons and all are equal in Christ.)

Yes, after Pentacost, through the apostles the Jews were being brought in to the NC first, Gentiles second, the betrothal and grafting in, i.e. "house of Israel." But the marriage consummation is not complete "until the fullness of the Gentiles (the nations; the individuals in those nation predestined to be saved) be come in. And so (in this way) all Israel (Jew and Gentile) shall be saved;---." (Romans 11:25-26). You are quite correct, God is no respecter of persons.

If the fullness of the Gentiles occurred and was completed in 70 A.D., all Israel, Jew and Gentile, this would mean according to Full preterist doctrine that this "completed" the NC. Making the NC a 40 year covenant rather than a continuous covenant. That all those post 70 A.D. to date and counting are left out of God's promises. Scripture dictates otherwise.

God bless---Twospirits

[Brother Les]

ts
It is JESUS who said "your house (your nation, not just the temple) is left to you desolate." Is that still not happening today?

No, it is not happening today. The OC 'house' and all that stood with it was taken from them and given to anyother. the NC 'house', which was made up of many from the OC 'house'. Mat.21:43

ts
Death and violence upon the people and the land.

You are still trying to straddle two different 'Covenants' at the same time. Having the 'church' in a (parenthisis) NC church Age and 'Jewish' Israel boundby 'curses' of the OC Age that were to end when the NC Age came about.

ts
Yes, after Pentacost, through the apostles the Jews were being brought in to the NC first, Gentiles second, the betrothal and grafting in, i.e. "house of Israel." But the marriage consummation is not complete "until the fullness of the Gentiles (the nations; the individuals in those nation predestined to be saved) be come in. And so (in this way) all Israel (Jew and Gentile) shall be saved;---." (Romans 11:25-26). You are quite correct, God is no respecter of persons.

The time line between betrothal and marriage of the Sinai covenant was 40 years. for 40 years all of those who died in the wilderness died for their Sins. Only The children of those who went in The Wilderness came out to be married and Live.... If it is over 2,000 years of 'betrothal', then all are dying because of their (our) Sins and none will have Salvation, Redemption, Resurrection, because (in your paradyim) we are no Yet 'married' to Jesus/God. We are still (Jews and gentiles) wandering in The wilderness and The Judgments of The OC still await us. If 'the Jews' are still under 'The Curse' then all man kind are still under 'the Curse of Death'. No marriage, no Life... No Marriage, only Death (Physical and Spiritual)

ts
If the fullness of the Gentiles occurred and was completed in 70 A.D., all Israel, Jew and Gentile, this would mean according to Full preterist doctrine that this "completed" the NC. Making the NC a 40 year covenant rather than a continuous covenant. That all those post 70 A.D. to date and counting are left out of God's promises. Scripture dictates otherwise

God bless---Twospirits

This completes the marriage ceremony and now we are forever in Covenant with God. Pentecost to the Holocaust of AD70 was the Betrothal period for the Virgin Body/Assmebly/the Way to YHWH. The Risen Messiah may have been betrothed to a 'New Bride', but until the ceremony there is no marriage contract. Both can walk away or end it. That is why the Hebrew writer is pleading with the Hebrews to not 'fall away' and go back to the elements of the world. (The Temple Cultus) For once that Cultus was gone the Marriage would happen for The Way. 40years after pentecost (types and anti-types) not thousands
Marriage = In Covenant

[twospirits]

BL said,
No, it is not happening today. The OC 'house' and all that stood with it was taken from them and given to anyother. the NC 'house', which was made up of many from the OC 'house'. Mat.21:43

That's a half truth, Jesus was speaking in both terms, physical and spiritually. "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. "---till ye shall say," Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt. 23:38-39). Their house physically and spiritually, as a nation and individually will lay desolate "until they acknowledge Christ as their Messiah throughout time;" this is what Jesus meant. Jesus did not say this curse will only apply until the NC was brought in, or until 70 A.D. occurred, and only spiritually. He said "until you say," that applies physically and spiritually to "then" and "now," and "tomorrow," yes 2000 years later. I was not "straddling between 2 different covenants," you were by your answer. There is "no parenthesis," the NC was brought in during the "transition age" (the 40 years) from 30 A.D. to 70 A.D., while the OC was fading away. The NC did not begin in 70 A.D., it began in 30 A.D.; this is very clear from scripture. Mt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20. The fulfillment came at Pentecost.

This completes the marriage ceremony and now we are forever in Covenant with God. Pentecost to the Holocaust of AD70 was the Betrothal period for the Virgin Body/Assmebly/the Way to YHWH. The Risen Messiah may have been betrothed to a 'New Bride', but until the ceremony there is no marriage contract. For once that Cultus was gone the Marriage would happen for The Way. 40years after pentecost (types and anti-types) not thousands
Marriage = In Covenant

Is the bride of Christ made up of just a foot and hand? or just a torso? Certainly not! But apparently so by your doctrine which states the marriage was consummated in 70 A.D., which leaves out the rest of the body from that time forward. The bride of Christ is made up of "all" in Christ worldwide, from its beginning in 30 A.D. to this very day in 2009 and counting. The most important aspect of the marriage motif is that when all is ready, the bridegroom comes to take the bride to the wedding chamber to consummate the marriage in his Father's house. ( John 14:3). That certainly did not happen in 70 A.D., and if one wishes to believe that, then the bridegroom, Christ, "consummated the marriage with a torso," rather than with the "body of Christ." according to Full Covenant doctrine. This those not say much for our Lord Jesus Christ, no offence intended. The consummation of the marriage will only occur after the fullness of the Gentiles (nations, Jew and Gentile) is fullfilled (Romans 11:25-26). And no man knows of that day and hour.

God bless---Twospirits

[tomret]

Twospirits, unlike Mt 24:30 & Re 1:7, the verses you cite, Re 5:9; 13:7; 14:6, all add qualifiers like "tongue and people and nation" to include areas of the oikumene beyond the earth (land). Even so, it was still limited to the 'world' of that time, the Roman Empire.

On p12 of your linked article you claim that "en tachei" in Re 1:1&22:7 (exact phrase in 1:1 only) doesn't mean soon in regard to time, but swiftly when the time comes. But, Re 1:3 tells us the time was near. [Time, G2540: a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time, hence: a fixed and definite time, the time when things are brought to crisis, the decisive epoch waited for. Near, G1451: of times imminent and soon to come pass.]

Re 22:7 is even easier to understand; the Lord stated clearly, "...I am coming quickly." [Quickly, G5035: quickly, speedily, without delay.] Re 22:10 reiterates the time was near, and for that reason the prophecy should NOT BE SEALED! This in contrast to Daniel being told to seal his c 5 centuries earlier. In all the final chapter contains six statements of imminence: Re 22:6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 20. It would seem Jesus wanted the first recipients of His Revelation to understand the nearness of His parousia. Considering this, shortly after a pre AD70 writing of Revelation was the horrendous destruction of Jerusalem. Shortly after AD 96 was...what?

In addition to Rev. your list on pp15-16 has John, 1,2&3 John, & Jude written post AD 70. Wow! What a teaching opportunity those guys missed! Surely the utter destruction of their temple, city, and economy could have been used to persuade the surviving Jews of their error, but not a word! That would be like history making no mention of the Civil War (it was just a local thing). More scholars are turning to pre AD 70 dating; here's a link with a number of arguments: http://upontruth.com/categories/bible_d ... ament.html

[twospirits]

Tomret said,
Twospirits, unlike Mt 24:30 & Re 1:7, the verses you cite, Re 5:9; 13:7; 14:6, all add qualifiers like "tongue and people and nation" to include areas of the oikumene beyond the earth (land). Even so, it was still limited to the 'world' of that time, the Roman Empire.

Certainly you see it that way, because you believe Revelation was fulfilled in 70 A.D., so you "confine" the meaning of "globe" to the "world" of the Roman Empire in all the prophetic texts. So I will ask the partial preterists a question; if the entire New Testament, including Revelation was written prior to 70 A.D.;why do partial preterists think there will be another second coming? Given their premise that all scripture was written before 70 A.D., what would be the biblical basis for assuming there is a second "2nd coming?" It would also mean the Full preterists are correct that the resurrection, the throne judgment, the marriage, the consummation, and the supper of the Lamb occurred at that time of 70 A.D. Therefore, there is no more sin, violence, death, sorrow, and pain, for we are, since 70 A.D., living in this incredible New heaven and earth, world without end.

No offence fellas, but the Inspired Word of God does not reveal those doctrines to me. God bless---Twospirits