Is Gary DeMar Secretly a Friend to Hyperpreterists?

[GaryDeMar]

“What do you say in response to all of the people saying that you are secretly a friend to hyperpreterists?” -- Question submitted by Aduro

I am a very visible friend to a number of hyperpreterists. There is nothing secret about it. I am also friends with dispensationalists. I count Tim LaHaye, Thomas Ice, and Mark Hitchcock as friends, although I can’t get them on my radio show. It’s important at this point to lay down some background information for those who may not be familiar with the prophetic debate that’s going on.

I get a lot of questions related to eschatology. Many of the terms used are rarely defined. I wonder what some of our readers think when they come across words like preterism, futurism, dispensationalism, postmillennialism, and even the word eschatology? “Eschatology” is the study of events related to the future. Preterism is a term that has received recent attention, but it has a long history. Charles H. Spurgeon defines preterism in his book Commenting and Commentaries this way: “1. Preterists. The prophecies contained in the Apocalypse were fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and the fall of heathen Rome.”[1] Technically, “the word comes from the Latin praeteritus (‘to go by, pass’) which, in turn, is based upon praeter (‘that which is beyond, past’).”[2] In simple terms, a preterist is someone who contends that certain prophecies have already been fulfilled; their fulfillment is in the past. For example, all the prophecies related to the first coming of Christ have been interpreted by Christians in a preterist fashion: They were unfulfilled prophecies when given; they are now fulfilled prophecy. Their fulfillment is in the past. This is the essence of preterism. New Testament preterism relates to prophecies that were fulfilled in events leading up to and including the destruction of the temple and the judgment on the city of Jerusalem that took place in A.D. 70, in particular, the Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospels (Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21), the Man of Lawlessness (2 Thess. 2), passages related to the Antichrist (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7), and, of course, Revelation (1:1, 3; 22:10).

Preterism of this type has a long and distinguished history. On the abomination of desolation, Eusebius (c. 263–339) writes: “And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26] with all kinds of misery of famine [Matt. 24:7], plague [Luke 21:21] and sword [Luke 21:24], and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple [Matt. 24:15], and it has remained there even till to-day, while they [i.e., the Jews] have daily reached deeper depths of desolation.”[3] I could cite many more preterist advocates.

So then, there is no debate over the historical and biblical data regarding certain forms of preterism as I have outlined them above. The big debate among preterists is how far does preterism go? Is all prophecy fulfilled? Full preterists say yes. Partial preterists say no. In between there is a lot of work yet to be done on specific passages. The tendency of full preterists is to fit everything into an A.D. 70 matrix. They do this with 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18, 1 Corinthians 15, and Revelation 20. A similar approach is followed with a number of Old Testament prophecies (e.g., Ezek 38–39 and Zech 12). I am willing to listen to their arguments since preterism in its present form is only now coming to its own as we shake off the dust of dispensationalism that has so distorted our interpretation of prophecy. I am willing to cut those full preterists some slack who are attempting to do real exegetical work. Many partial preterists are not willing to do this. To my mind, this approach is counterproductive. Honest analysis of the Bible is required. I want to be challenged by the best arguments possible, whether they come from full preterists or dispensationalists. I refuse to adopt a position because I’ve been told to do so. To quote Posey from The Dirty Dozen, “I don’t like being pushed.”

Endnotes:

[1] Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Commenting and Commentaries (London: The Banner of Truth Trust, [1876] 1969), 198.
[2] Jay E. Adams, Preterism: Orthodox or Unorthodox? (Stanley, NC: Timeless Texts, 2003), v.
[3] Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, trans. W. J. Ferrar, 2 vols. in 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1981), 2:138, (403: b-c).

[seal]

Gary,

I agree with a lot of your sentiments in getting people to understand what Eschatology and other Terminology dealing with it means. I'm just trying to understand your position with the implications of Full/Consistent/TransMill, whatever they want to call themselves, in how that would affect the Gospel of Jesus Christ as we know it. 1 Corinthians 15 is a Juggernaut passage and your defense of it's Historical teaching I thought was very well presented. I've been reading the arguments of Full Preterist for some time now and I fail to see how Orthopraxical their conclusions can be. So, I've analyzed this to the best of my ability to see if it fits and I come up with Hyper-Amillenialism.

Yet, from your analysis, what conclusion have you come up with so far about that position. Cuz, implying that even before the pollution of Dispensationalism that the Church was wrong about (I'd say the Gospel others may not convey this) what the forensics of the Resurrection looks like, the Spiritual and Physical Reality of Christ Kingdom, and a completed Reign of Christ with the Saints is a bit alarming.

Just a few thoughts I had.

Grace and Peace,
seal

[vvaduva]

Gary, I have always admired your position on this issue, and above all theological arguments, you have displayed the love of Christ when dealing with those of us who really try to make sense of Biblical eschatology. That's more than most people out there have done. Thanks!

[Lumberjack]

I really don't have a dog in this fight [PP vs. FP] but I do have a comment. I have been associated with 17 different churches of all denominations, Lutherans, Methodists, Charismatic, Savation Army, Nondenominational, Apastolic Lutherans [exclusionary, only ones saved] United Pentacostal, Christian Churches Reformed,Vineyard, Baptists,and a host of others. Melody and I even pastored a home church for several years. I did various roles in these and studied their doctrines and traditions under a God given zeal. I even did 3 years with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was never a member, but we had a study in our house with the head Elder and his wife for all that time. Interesting, when Walter Martin said the average J W will make a doctrinal pretzel out of the average Christian in 30 seconds, he meant it. I thought I knew my stuff when we started, but early on one evening, they took me apart. Using the scriptures. Quite the learning experience. I could write a book about this journey, but here's my point.

If you used the biblical interpretation rules that all these denominations use, you would basically come to believe what they believe. So if you don't want to argue [discuss] in fruitless circles, Then I find that Biblical Hermeneutics has to be included.

Sincerely, Lumberjack

[cwcoty]

Gary, thanks for the slack. I, as you are, am bound by conscience to be a faithful Berean. Sometimes abiding by convictions can be hazardous to relationships. It should not be this way in a New Covenant world. If every Christian became a partial preterist I'd be a happy man. The 3 major tenets that I think are necessarily soundly addressed and defeated by your views are:

1. The time is short
2. The world is headed for impending cataclysmic disaster
3. Those living in the modern state of Israel are the apple of God's eye and play a significant role in near-term prophetic fulfillment

I long for the day when the Israelis, Muslims and atheists are assaulted by and submit to the Gospel of Christ!

In my naive view, I believe reformed preterists, both partial and full, should be united in ministry to reach the world for Christ. Instead I find too much dissension on both sides. I am being told that I am changing soteriological definitions much like the Mormons and the JWs. Hogwash! I love Jesus and I've grown tired of people telling me that I don't. Recognizing the real time faithfulness of God to those hurting, heavily persecuted first century Christ-followers, was the lift that brought me out of my spiritual abyss. Whether I stayed a partial preterist or became of full preterist is NOT the issue. You and I see God through the same time sensitive lens of abiding faithfulness.

BTW, I attend a dispie church of approx 3,000 and they are fulfilling our Eph. 2:10 call. Although I believe their eschatological conclusions are stunting our potential, I co-labor with these folks putting aside artificial divisions. I continue to respectfully and graciously challenge our pastor across a broad range of issues.

Thanks again Gary for the charity! I listen to your program daily and have encouraged many others to do the same. The worldview war is too critical for us (the larger body) to continue shooting at each other.

Blessings to you, James, Joel and the AV staff. You have been a breath of fresh air to my sometimes weary soul. <><

[Duncan]

Honest analysis of the Bible is required. I want to be challenged by the best arguments possible, whether they come from full preterists or dispensationalists. I refuse to adopt a position because I’ve been told to do so. To quote Posey from The Dirty Dozen, “I don’t like being pushed.”

Amen Gary. Very well put.

Duncan
http://sites.google.com/site/antichristandthesecondcoming/

[JLVaughn]

Thank-you Gary.

[MillennialSaint]

Gary,

The Hymenean Preterists are not doing any "real exegetical work." They are simply distorting the evidence to support their pseudo-Gnostic concept of Christianity. So the early heretics who denied the resurrection of the body were right after all?? Not buying it!

Your tergiversation on this issue is bad news. Instead of recognizing Hymenean Preterism for what it is, you treat it as if it's a valid expression of Christianity. All you're doing is letting these guys use your name to validate their heresy. They're walking all over you, and you're letting them.

Brian

[Brant]

Brian,

Gary on his recent radio shows says “we need to dump dispensationalism; it is a system that cannot be supported Biblically. It is a system that has done a great deal of damage to the church of Jesus Christ. … it has immobilized Christians.”

Aren’t you the one who has been espousing some sort of Brian’s brand of dispensationalism? Aren’t you the one who has been saying that Christ work was incomplete so He has to come back again? Aren’t you the one who has been saying that Paul and the Apostles got confused about the end times and changed their mind?

Well Brian if you are that one then Gary surely has news for you and you will not find him wanting anything to do with your form of dispensationalism.

Brian you are kind of a fish out of water here on Gary’s site which espouses Preterism and not dispensationalism.

If you are not that Brian then please excuse this post.

Brant

[Brother Les]

by MillennialSaint
Gary,

The Hymenean Preterists are not doing any "real exegetical work." They are simply distorting the evidence to support their pseudo-Gnostic concept of Christianity. So the early heretics who denied the resurrection of the body were right after all?? Not buying it!

Your tergiversation on this issue is bad news. Instead of recognizing Hymenean Preterism for what it is, you treat it as if it's a valid expression of Christianity. All you're doing is letting these guys use your name to validate their heresy. They're walking all over you, and you're letting them.

Brian

The 'Hymenean' 'Question' has been answered, Brian. The issue, at that time, was 'The Timing' of His Parousia. The Apostle Paul did not admonish 'The Type'...only The Timing. You know this already and only want to use this as a deflection to 'inspire' those that are not doing any "real exegetical work

[MillennialSaint]

Dear "Brant,"

For the record, it matters not to me what Gary (or anyone else) thinks of Dispensationalism. My issue is that Hymenean Preterism is a heresy, which creates a different Gospel, by re-defining the Christian concept of "salvation." In order to preach the 'glad tidings' of Christ's redemption, we have to know what we are redeemed from. Hymenean Preterism gives the lie to 2,000 years of Christian teaching on Jesus Christ's atoning work. If death is not physical, then there was no need for Christ to physically die on the Cross to pay the wages of sin (Romans 6: 23).

Regardless of what Gary thinks concerning Dispensationalism, he must admit that it is within the pale of orthodoxy -- whereas Hymenean Preterism is not. Because of their heterodox teachings, H.P.'s are constantly seeking validation from established theologians. Unfortunately, the've found in Gary a receptive hearer. They are banking on that for everything it's worth (see above comments by well-known proponents of Hymenean Preterism).

Gary, I know you disagree with my theology, and that's fine. However, I want to warn you that these guys are using your ministry to promote their heresy. Behind the curtains they have zero respect for you. They only show respect here in the hopes that you'll coddle them, and eventually tell them what they want to hear: that Hymenean Preterism is a valid evangelical option.

Peace & Health,

Brian

[James]

MillennialSaint,

However, I want to warn you that these guys are using your ministry to promote their heresy. Behind the curtains they have zero respect for you. They only show respect here in the hopes that you'll coddle them, and eventually tell them what they want to hear: that Hymenean Preterism is a valid evangelical option.

This is not the issue being dealt with in the post. Your conclusions are purely speculative. Please discontinue from speaking about that which you do not know for fact.

I am willing to listen to their arguments since preterism in its present form is only now coming to its own as we shake off the dust of dispensationalism that has so distorted our interpretation of prophecy. I am willing to cut those full preterists some slack who are attempting to do real exegetical work. Many partial preterists are not willing to do this. To my mind, this approach is counterproductive. Honest analysis of the Bible is required. I want to be challenged by the best arguments possible, whether they come from full preterists or dispensationalists.

This is the most significant issue being dealt with in the post. It isn't to say Gary listens to all full preterists. He listens to those "who are attempting to do real exegetical work." He named no names so you have no basis to regard ALL full preterists as heretical or even the one's he believes are doing "real exegetical work." How can you critique what you don't know?