Hyperpreterist’s Butchering the Resurrection of the Dead

[Aduro]

It seems to me that some NON Preterists are questioning the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was asked 'For a Sign' and His answer was 'The Sign of Jonas". I believe that Jesus Christ came out of the Grave in the Very Same State That He Went in. 100% God and 100% man.

Haha. So partial preterists are the usurpers now? He was 100% man and god before, but there was clearly a difference. His body prior to the grave was prone to death, but his body following the resurrection was clearly not. You are just skirting the issue and performing magnificent handwaves, while trying to demonize partial preterists.

The point of thinking is "Does He keep His 'state' of 100% Man"? He is 'the Son of Man', but He is also, 'The Son of God'. Does He always stay 'Son of Man'. Do 'we' stay, Son of Man, or are 'The Sons of God' (Israel, Prince of God)?

Irrelevant to the conversation, as we all know what Jesus' nature is, or should.

John knew Jesus before and after The Cross. Jesus was the same during both. But John writes in 1John 3:2-6 That john does not know what Jesus will be like when He comes 'back', but that 'we' (he) will be like Him as He truely is. Jesus was Minifested as a Human to be the perfect sacrifice to take away Sins. He did that. And when we go to The Hevenlies, we will be manifest as He is. Is He to still be 100% human? That is not how He started before His Manifestation.

YLT 1john 3:
2beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;

3and every one who is having this hope on him, doth purify himself, even as he is pure.

4Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,

5and ye have known that he was manifested that our sins he may take away, and sin is not in him;

6every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him.

As usual, you stretch words to fit your cause, and thereby ruin the intended meaning. You take a single verse and make it out as if John had not seen the resurrected Christ, despite the striking differences in His appearance. His wounds no longer bled and he had died, but he could still eat food and was as one of the living. It is your denial of the orthodox understanding of the resurrection that brings you to this error.

Further, the verse itself states that believers are children of God. We know that we will be made anew, because Jesus has been. However, a believer has not yet been made out as Jesus has. But, if we believe in Jesus, we will purify ourselves in expectation. For those that do this, they will see Jesus as He is, because they will be like Him. That is, they will be without sin, while unbelievers will not see Him or know Him because of their sin.

[Brother Les]

aduro posted?
Haha. So partial preterists are the usurpers now? He was 100% man and god before, but there was clearly a difference. His body prior to the grave was prone to death, but his body following the resurrection was clearly not. You are just skirting the issue and performing magnificent handwaves, while trying to demonize partial preterists.

So is it safe for you to say that Lazuras and the one Paul raised from The Dead (who fell out of a window do to his long sermon) could not die either? Did they recieve their Glorious bodies at their Resurrection? They had not been to the Holy of Holies and neither has Jesus prier to His Asension.

If Jesus Christ was not the same Pre and post Cross, then His bodily resurrection was a false claim and His 'sign of Jonas' was a false prophecy.

by Aduro

Brother Les
The point of thinking is "Does He keep His 'state' of 100% Man"? He is 'the Son of Man', but He is also, 'The Son of God'. Does He always stay 'Son of Man'. Do 'we' stay, Son of Man, or are 'The Sons of God' (Israel, Prince of God)?

Irrelevant to the conversation, as we all know what Jesus' nature is, or should.

Clue us in on your interp of jesus/Gods true nature? Is it 100% man AND 100% God. or was His 'Bodily' resurrection questionable as real or a hoax in your paradiym? If you believe that Father God is 100% man (+100% God), I guess a 'good' mormon can help us understand that reasoning.

by Aduro
As usual, you stretch words to fit your cause, and thereby ruin the intended meaning. You take a single verse and make it out as if John had not seen the resurrected Christ, despite the striking differences in His appearance. His wounds no longer bled and he had died, but he could still eat food and was as one of the living. It is your denial of the orthodox understanding of the resurrection that brings you to this error.

Further, the verse itself states that believers are children of God. We know that we will be made anew, because Jesus has been. However, a believer has not yet been made out as Jesus has. But, if we believe in Jesus, we will purify ourselves in expectation. For those that do this, they will see Jesus as He is, because they will be like Him. That is, they will be without sin, while unbelievers will not see Him or know Him because of their sin.

Read it again. John knew Jesus pre and post Cross. But He stated that he (john) will not know what Jesus will be like when He comes back. Jesus did not recieve His Glorious State until He went into the Presence of The Father in the Holy of Holies.

by Aduro
You apparently see the world as something inherently bad that will eventually pass away. I think this is evident in that FPs seem to express indifference or the eventual end of the physical earth.

You should have never recieved this impression from my writings.

[Aduro]

So is it safe for you to say that Lazuras and the one Paul raised from The Dead...

Your assertion makes no sense. How was Jesus the firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)? The verses in question clearly make it out that Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body, as He is the "the firstfruits of them that [koimaó]." There is no ambiguity: the dead are dead, but then made [zóopoieó].

You are saying that Jesus appeared to them in a body that wasn't glorified, but that which they stilled marvelled over. And a body that was clearly not like theirs, as His wounds no longer bled and yet he could still eat. He was dead, but God made him alive. Yet, you say He was dead, made alive and then rose to be glorified. How could the apostles have been a witness to God's promise of Jesus as the firstfruits if they never even saw what they were promised?

Of course, you beg the question on this in the verse you quoted. However, the focus is not on Jesus' resurrection body, but of His promise and the need to perfect oneself for the coming resurrection of all. The people you mentioned were not "resurrected" in any other sense than they were resusitated and gained a temporary reprieve from death. I hope you won't say that Jesus, after being resurrected following His burial, was prone to death until He theoretically ascended and was glorified at that point. Is that what you are trying to say here? Or was His body just deception, like the old argument goes?

If Jesus Christ was not the same...

Consider that Jesus was buried (swallowed up) in a hostile entity (the Grave/Whale) for the same time period. And then was delivered from it by God, like Jonas. I don't think there is a question of Jonas' body being fully human, but you have to draw it further in an attempt to make your case.

Clue us in on your interp of jesus/Gods...

???

Jesus was made as a man, but was fully God and human. The Father God isn't human. What the-?

Read it again...

Lacking your mindset, it fails to show me that He was making a definitive statement about Jesus' nature and saying that He never knew what Jesus was to become. Your eyes bore through the text in your effort in eisegesis.

You should have never recieved this impression from my writings.

Oh, really. Where do Christians spend eternity, and what happens to Earth? Unless I am mistaken, the latter becomes irrelevant to most in your position. Then again, you people make sure you are able to claim a misinterpretation of your views and act like poor martyrs of the "true faith," so I wouldn't be surprised if this is another duck, dodge and dive.

[Brother Les]

by Aduro
Your assertion makes no sense. How was Jesus the firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)? The verses in question clearly make it out that Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body, as He is the "the firstfruits of them that [koimaó]." There is no ambiguity: the dead are dead, but then made [zóopoieó].

Where does it say in a 'glorified body'? When was he 'raise' (stood up) as The FirstFruit? Was this 3 days after The Cross? Was He 'dead' in Sheol for those three days? Are 'we' 'Saved' now? if we 'die' and 'come back in some future, does that mean that our 'Salvation' at this time meant nothing?

I hope you won't say that Jesus, after being resurrected following His burial, was prone to death until He theoretically ascended and was glorified at that point. Is that what you are trying to say here? Or was His body just deception, like the old argument goes?

There is no solid evidence that He was 'prone to death' before The Cross either? When did He die (Physically AND spiritually)? The moment The Father left Him? When did He regain His 'oneness' with Father God (Firstfruits?) in your mindset? Was it three full days and nights later? Was He apart from Father God that long?

Where do Christians spend eternity

In the Parousia of God

what happens to Earth

God has not told me His plans for a/the future earth. What matters is the present earth and what christians do in Kingdom building.

Then again, you people make sure you are able to claim a misinterpretation of your views and act like poor martyrs of the "true faith," so I wouldn't be surprised if this is another duck, dodge and dive.

"you people"? I am just trying to read the Scriptures from a first century audience relevance stand point and understand the changing of the Covenant Worlds/Ages. I am not bound by the Death, law, works of the OC. Many Christians (you people?) bind themselves to Death,Law, works and a 'Hoped for' "Risings UP"..... If the "Rising Up" has not happened, then all are most definitely under the Mosaic Law of Death.

[Aduro]

With that kind of dodging, there's not much for me to write. That is, unless you decide to go back and actually give some answers, rather than counter with fruitless questions.

As far as your questions go, it would take much more than the space I have now to adequately answer them appropriately. And then, there's the question of fairness, since you sidestepped every single one of mine. But, I'm a nice guy, so I'll let you have the advantage by answering you once again.

Where does it say in a 'glorified body'?

To be resurrected is for your dead body to be brought back to life (Daniel 12:2-3, Ezekiel 37:1-12, Is. 26:19). Those resurrected in the faith are raised "imperishable," or rather, incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:42-44). Mike Bull explained in another topic that in the OT, corruption reigned and touching something unclean made the clean unclean; however, in the NT, he explained, those incorruptible make the unclean clean. Christ was resurrected from the dead and made the firstfruits, like I said before. Thus, He had to have been raised in this incorruptible form for "firstfruits" to be applicable to Him, with the timing clearly taking place at the "resurrection" or bringing of life back to the body to incorruptibility.

As for the rest in this series, they are irrelevant in the face of this topic, and the last question is just plain ridiculous.

In the Parousia of God

Considering parousia means coming or presence, I must assume you mean the latter. Assuming you mean Christians exist in some kind of heavenly limbo, this flies in the face of the end of Revelation, which you conveniently re-interpret to work within your paradigm (Revelation 21). But that does little to diffuse the intended meaning.

Although, one might take this as a bit of a semantic trap, since no one (except maybe certain cults) will say that Christians will not be with God in the "end."

God has not told me His plans for a/the future earth. What matters is...

This is a pitiful dodge, and your last sentence is just as bad as dispensationalist thinking. It is also the hallmark of your type of "preterism," which is loathe to undertake any kind of action in this world. I mean, all prophecy is fulfilled! What more is there to do? Typical.

"you people"? I am just trying to read the Scriptures from a first century audience relevance stand point and understand the changing of the Covenant Worlds/Ages. I am not bound by the Death, law, works of the OC. Many Christians (you people?) bind themselves to Death,Law, works and a 'Hoped for' "Risings UP"..... If the "Rising Up" has not happened, then all are most definitely under the Mosaic Law of Death.

I think you have been reading the wrong books, because they certainly didn't have any conception of your brand of "preterism."

[Brother Les]

by Aduro
I think you have been reading the wrong books, because they certainly didn't have any conception of your brand of "preterism."

Do you ever read or understand what you are writing?

You said (paraphrase) "Brother Les has been reading the wrong books, because they certainly don't have any conception of Brother Les' preterism"

What the heck does that mean? The books I read don't line up with what I believe? I guess that would be correct with books from Tim LaHay and Joel Jefferies. I read a lot of books that don't line up with Covenant Eschatology. Many writers label their works as fact, when it is also quesstionable.

[Aduro]

In other words, more dodging. Thanks for that concession.

[seal]

Yo,

This is a great discussion and I appreciate the dialogue laid out here by B-Les and Aduro.

B-Les, so you are asserting that Christ Body when he appeared to the Disciples was not in a Glorified state. How was he able to walk through walls and appear and disappear from plain sight all while being able to take down some fish?

It's a bit of a loaded question....LOL....

Also, Was his body aging all the way up to when he ascended to David's Throne in Heaven?

Just a few questions. 2nd one may be a bit repetitive of the first....LOL...


Grace and Peace,
seal

[Brother Les]

by seal »
B-Les, so you are asserting that Christ Body when he appeared to the Disciples was not in a Glorified state. How was he able to walk through walls and appear and disappear from plain sight all while being able to take down some fish?

It's a bit of a loaded question....LOL....

Hello Seal, Blessings to you.
Every question you have seems to be 'loaded'.

Jesus Chrtist came out of the Grave in the very same body that He went into the Grave. He could do supernatual things before The Cross (walk on water, appears and disappear) and also after He came out of the ground. What are you crediting to as this being His Glorified Body from the time between the 'Bodily Rising up' and His asension? He was not truely as (having all Glory) His Father is, for He still had the manifestation of his 100% Humaness (and 100% Godlyness). (Scripute says that He was 'Manifested' for one reason, to take away the Sins of The World).
no where in Scripture does it say that He will keep His 'Humaness' forever that I know of. Scripture says that 'we' will be like Him as He truely is and have a Glorious body. But this must be completely in tune with the 'bodily' configuration of Father God. Does Father God have a 100% Human body? I can find no evidence of that and do not believe that He does. In order for Jesus and God to be fully 'as one', they need to be 'fully as one'. Both Spirit and Human or both (as Scripture says God is a Spirit) as only Spirit. We (as Humans) are an 'image' of The Real. And when we completly drop 'the image' (the carnal flesh, even though Jesus never Sinned, he had 'carnal flesh), we will be as He (Jesus/God/ HS) is.... Glorious

[JLVaughn]

Seal,

I think the problem many have is a simple confusion. John wrote

Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

I can't find "glorified body" in Scripture. Christ was glorified. Not Christ's body.

For some reason some people think Jesus came out of the grave with a different "glorified body."

They don't realize that this undermines the doctrine of Christ's resurrection. Either Christ was raised with the same body, or he wasn't raised.

If he was raised with the same body, then it wasn't a "glorified body."

It was Christ, not His body that was "glorified."

Blessings.

[Aduro]

In order for Jesus and God to be fully 'as one', they need to be 'fully as one'.

Where does it say this, or how do you infer it from Scripture? Are you actually claiming that Jesus ceases to be human and becomes something else? So, our "kinsman-redeemer" was only a temporary bump in Jesus' existence?

They don't realize that this undermines the doctrine of Christ's resurrection. Either Christ was raised with the same body, or he wasn't raised.

Dear readers,

JLVaughn's worldview is muddied by the denial of reality, in such ways as thinking death is no more and yet, I think anyone with a smidgeon of common sense can see that this is obviously not the case. Of course, he warps the meaning of Scripture to his own destructive advantage (rejects the traditional and plain reading for his own interpretation, etc), and thus this invariably leads him to the conclusion that Jesus could not possibly have been raised incorruptible. Why? Because death is perfectly natural! And what we consider sin isn't really that... Because he considers Revelation to have finished completely, and thus, they are nonexistent, having been destroyed along with the old world order (1 Corinthians 15:26, Revelation 20:14, 21:4).

However, what are we promised (1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 9:25, Romans 1:23)? We, Christians, seek an incorruptible inheritance, which Jesus Himself is the firstfruits of (1 Corinthians 15:20-23). Now, please. Read the last four verses I mentioned carefully. What is Christ the firstfruits of?---the resurrected dead (the dead "nekros" and of them that sleep "koimaó." But, Jesus Himself "resurrected" people from the dead, as did the apostles! If Jesus was merely brought back from the dead as is, then Paul was in error. Or, JLVaughn just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Romans 8:19-23 says that both the whole of creation and we, believers, look eagerly forward to our resurrection. The resurrection and that of believers is given to be at the same time. We know our prize is the incorruptible glory of God, which entails the redemption from our current state and our dwelling being with Him. We know that corruptibility is the state of the world, as it is. In the Old Testament, the unclean thing made what was clean unclean; however, now the unclean is made clean through the power of God. Therefore, as the firstfruits of the resurrection, we can look at Jesus as made incorruptible as a son of God, and what look forward to becoming.