Noah's Curse on Canaan

[Azaliah]

Noah had a habit of sleeping in the nude, and ol' Ham walked in and ran his mouth about it, so his two brothers went in and "walking backwards" covered him up. Did I get it right?

From what I've read the text is saying politely that he actually had sex with Noah.

Ok well Noah did not have a habit of sleeping in the nude...that was a joke. Lets translate this and look at it seriously

Masoretic Text:
Vayar Cham avi Chena'an et ervat aviv vayaged lishney-echav bachuts.

וַיַּרְא חָם אֲבִי כְנַעַן אֵת עֶרְוַת אָבִיו וַיַּגֵּד
לִשְׁנֵֽי־אֶחָיו בַּחֽוּץ׃

(if you don't have Hebrew installed on your computer you may not see that)

Vayar Charm avi Chena'an(Ham (Father of Cannon) Saw) et ervat aviv vayaged lishney-echav bachuts ( the nakedness, of his father and told his brothers.

If I want to say, God saw, like God saw the light and it was Good, I would use the term Vayar Elohyim. Exactly like it's written in Bereshit (Genesis)1:4 Vayar Elohim et-ha'or ki-tov "God saw the light was good".

So, from a purely text translation we have no true interpretation of what Ham did other than, See his father naked. Unless you are some how suggesting God raped the water (in Genesis 1:4).

However, it is Jewish tradition (from some sources) that when used in that phrasing, that it meant a sexual violation of Noah in some way. Whether that is rape, or he "uncovered" (forbidden by levitical law) his fathers nakedness, even some Rabbi's have gone as far to say that, Ham castrated Noah.

I think any idea of what happened besides the actual translation "Vayar Charm" Ham Saw, would be a "logical translation" vice a literal translation. (viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1053)

I tend to think he did something that violated Noah in some way.

[James]

Azaliah,

To go even further when you add in Leviticus 18 that JL pointed out it says:

7 'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness. . . . .26'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you 27(for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled); 28so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you. 29'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people. 30'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

The same language is being used in the account of Noah and Ham. After the incident with Ham, Noah wakes up and the account continues

24When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him.

[shotgun]

So, there seems to be agreement over WHY Noah would curse Canaan.

What of the rest of the questions I asked? Is the curse relevent to us today? What is the nature of it? What of Noah's comments concerning Shem and Japeth's future relationship?

[tetrahedron]

Is the curse relevent to us today? What is the nature of it? What of Noah's comments concerning Shem and Japeth's future relationship?

No, I don't think the curse is relevant today since there are no longer any Canaanites. According to the Book of Jubilees (which is only considered canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church), the conquest of the land of Canaan, and the curse, are attributed to Canaan's "squatting" on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean, which was supposed to be reserved for Shem.

[JLVaughn]

So, there seems to be agreement over WHY Noah would curse Canaan.

What of the rest of the questions I asked? Is the curse relevent to us today? What is the nature of it? What of Noah's comments concerning Shem and Japeth's future relationship?

The curse was on Canaan and his descendants, not Ham's.

Moses married a Cushite. Cush was Ham's first born. When Miriam complained, she, not Moses was cursed.

That "future relationship" was spelled out in the Geneva Bible notes. It was the Presbyterian justification for the racist slave trade.

So what would you have me do? Put away my Cushite wife?

[Aduro]

I think it's more likely that they just used the Curse as an explanation for why they were so depraved. It's not like Noah had mystical powers and called down God's wrath upon Canaan, as we clearly see that they functioned well enough to be dangerous warmongers.

[shotgun]

You could start by civilly answering questions.

What do YOU feel the "curse" meant? If those racist presbos got it wrong...what is the correct reading?

[JTownsend]

Lev. 18. Compare the King James with the NIV

Wow... I never came across this before.

Still, I'm not sure we can interpret it like Canaan had sex with his dad. And I'm sorry but I don't put tons of authority on the King James translation is any situation this delicate.

I would have to fall into the category that whatever happened, whether sex, or just peeking at Dad's nakedness, it seems there was a level of disrespect from son to father.

I would tend to lean towards the whole "disrespectful" argument... but maybe that's because the alternative is too horrific for me to consider.

[JLVaughn]

You could start by civilly answering questions.

What do YOU feel the "curse" meant? If those racist presbos got it wrong...what is the correct reading?

Civil? You said interracial marriage was a sin. You've not bothered to clarify your remarks. Why shouldn't I take it personally?

Civil? You called me PC. Yeah right.

It matters not what I feel. Nor does it matter specifically what the curse was. The curse was on Canaan, not Cush. Canaan is dead and has been for 3000 years. The curse on Canaan ended with the death of Canaan and was not transferred to Canaan's brothers.

Jeramiah,

There are numerous ways the Lev. 18 context could be used. For example, some have suggested Canaan was Ham's son by Noah's wife. I'm not advocating any of these understandings. I just pointed to the source when someone else brought it up.

[James]

Still, I'm not sure we can interpret it like Canaan had sex with his dad. And I'm sorry but I don't put tons of authority on the King James translation is any situation this delicate.

NASB, ESV, and NKJV all translate it the same way that the KJV does.

[tetrahedron]

You could start by civilly answering questions.

Please understand it from our perspective. You've made some questionable comments claiming the Bible as your justification without any sort of clarification.

After repeated requests for clarification you've provided little more than "you wouldn't understand," and perhaps that is true. But you do appear to be saying that interracial marriage is a sin, so I think we would like to see if this is spelled out in the Bible somewhere or if it's simply your personal opinion on race.

[shotgun]

Mr. Tet,

Your gross misrepresentation of our exchange aside...nothing you just said has any bearing on this thread.

If you and Mr. J. L. Vaughn can't civilly converse with people who disagree with you about various issues, then you should reflect on the maturity required to post in forums like this.

Let's discuss Noah's curse on Canaan, and its ramifications for today (if there are any.)

I get a good chuckle out of watching you guys trip over yourselves in an attempt to avoid the obvious (and historically recognized) connotations of this passage.

Let's discuss it with cool heads, or not at all.