Martin Luther: False Teacher?

[Be Not Afraid]

Hello Thomas,

Scripture does not tell us which texts were inspired. The Catholic Church defined the Canon of scripture in the 4th century. Over 1,500+ years after Jesus established the Church and warned about false teachers, Martin Luther, a renegade Catholic priest in Germany, decided to re-design God's Church. In the process he changed the Canon of Scripture.

The Catholic Church uses the term Apocrypha differently than Protestants. For Catholics, the Apocrypha is divided into Old and New Testament works: The O.T. Apocrypha includes writings such as the Martyrdom of Isaiah, 3 Maccabees and the Book of Enoch. The N.T. Apocrypha contains works such as the Gospel of Thomas, Protoevangelium of James, Gospel of Peter and various epistles and apocalypses whose authorship are unfounded or false.

Luther, with his "Re-formation of the Church" removed 7 books from Inspired Canon and incorporated them into the "Protestant Apocrypha." Thus, today you only have 66 books as part of your Inspired Canon of Scripture. So, Protestants include in their Apocrypha the 7 books of the Old Testament which the Catholics Church defined as inspired and canonical (Judith, Tobit, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, and 1 and 2 Maccabees.) Luther also attempted to remove the N.T. books of James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation. He described the Book of James as "nonsense."

Q. Who has authority to define inspired scripture? You?
If not you, then what makes Luther different than you?

Put it in perspective:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:1) The Word is Jesus Christ (Second Person of the Trinity.) The Word took flesh from the Virgin Mary and entered time and became man.

In the Old Testament, God (Holy Trinity) changed the names of Abram to: Abraham and Jacob to: Israel. In the New Testament, God (Jesus) changed Simon's name to: Cephas (Aramaic for "Rock" [Latin: "Peter"]) (John 1:42) Jesus then established his Church on earth and gave the Keys of the Kingdom to: Peter. (Matt. 16:18-19) Jesus (God) commanded "Simon Peter" to feed and tend the flock of the Church (John 21:15-17)

The Church is the Body of Christ. Jesus (God) is the Head. The Holy Spirit (God) infallibly guides the Church through the ages, not a book. Jesus warned about wolves among the sheep: false teachers. (Matt. 7:15) Despite traitors and hypocrites (like Judas among the 12), God's Church teaches infallibly because Jesus (God) is the head. We see the authority of the Church in action. Your Bible says: "If he refuses to listen...tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matt. 18:16-17)

The Catholic Church traces it's 2000+ year apostolic link to Peter

[JTownsend]

Martin Luther, a renegade Catholic priest in Germany, decided to re-design God's Church.

Luther spoke up because the Catholic church was trying to say you could buy your way into heaven. I might add that he did this while the Pope was selling indulgences and Church Offices (!). I guess according to the Pope at the time you could buy your way into church leadership. Here's a snippet from the online Catholic Encyclopedia on Pope Leo X

Vigorous measures of reform might have proved an efficacious antidote, but the pope was deeply entangled in political affairs... moreover, [Pope Leo X] gave himself up unrestrainedly to his pleasures and failed to grasp fully the duties of his high office.

Martin Luther said other things like

Unless you can convince me by scripture or by clear reasoning, I am bound by my beliefs

So he was saying we should stand on God's word.

In our Latin Bible, 'repent' has come to mean 'to do penance.' But in the original Greek it means 'to change one's mind' — and that is what Jesus meant. Jesus didn't ask for penance... works, deeds or rituals... he asks for a simple change of heart. Salvation is not earned by pilgrimages to Rome, veneration of relics, or Masses attended. We need only Jesus Christ. Jesus paid for our sins. Salvation is a gift from God.

So Luther wanted to translate properly and accurately. And this coming from a Theological Doctor.

And a personal favorite

Whenever the devil pesters you, at once seek out the company of friends, drink more, joke and jest, or engage in some form of merriment.

And he said we should seek accountability in times of trouble and not "go it alone"!

Though Luther was known to have a temper, especially with the Church, I assuredly can't blame someone for saying these things.

So should we support someone who says "Let's stick to scripture" like Dr. Martin Luther, or someone who tried to gain money by saying "You can buy your way into Heaven" like what the Pope was doing? Either or, take your pick.

[Be Not Afraid]

JTownsend said:

should we support someone who says "Let's stick to scripture" like Dr. Martin Luther, or someone who tried to gain money by saying "You can buy your way into Heaven" like what the Pope was doing?

I must admonish you to be careful of slandering anyone. No pope ever said you can buy your way into heaven, which is what you specifically put in quotes. You're spreading a lie (though I realize you're doing it out of ignorance).

I'll use an analogy. What you claim in writing for all to read is like saying that the Baptist church endorsed sexual abuse by their pastors because Baptist pastors were accused of abusing children.

I would suggest you study what the Catholic Church teaches on indulgences. The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever approved the sale of indulgences.

The truth is that it was a scandal, and individuals who did sell indulgences (the best known of them was the German Dominican Johann Tetzel) acted contrary to explicit Church regulations. It's a lie for you to say that it was a teaching of the Catholic Church. Understand the difference between scandals and Church teaching.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) issued a decree that gave Church teaching on indulgences and provided stringent guidelines to eliminate abuses:

Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church (Matt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:23), and she has even in the earliest times made use of that power divinely given to her, the holy council teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to the Christian people and approved by the authority of the holy councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns with anathema those who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.

In granting them, however, it desires that in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church moderation be observed, lest by too great facility ecclesiastical discipline be weakened. But desiring that the abuses which have become connected with them, and by any reason of which this excellent name of indulgences is blasphemed by the heretics, be amended and corrected, it ordains in a general way by the present decree that all evil traffic in them, which has been a most prolific source of abuses among the Christian people, be absolutely abolished.

Other abuses, however, of this kind which have sprung from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from whatever other sources, since by reason of the manifold corruptions in places and provinces where they are committed, they cannot conveniently be prohibited individually, it commands all bishops diligently to make note of, each in his own church, and report them to the next provincial synod. (Sess. 25, Decree on Indulgences)

[seal]

Luther wasn't perfect. But Catholic lady... Your Pope's said far damnable worst....

1) "We the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland, prostrate at the feet of your Holiness, humbly offer you our warmest congratulations on the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of your ordination to the priesthood… our thoughts go back to that great event fifty years ago by which your Holiness was taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that pertain to God, was made a minister of Christ and a dispenser of His mysteries, received power over the real and mystical body of our Saviour and became a mediator between God and man - another Christ." Address to Pope Pius Xll in 1949:-

2) Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) wrote: "We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God." (1 Book of Gregory 9 Decret. c.3)

3) The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)

4) Pope Nicholas said of himself: "I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)

5) The RC New York catechism states: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."

6) The title "Lord God the Pope" - these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

www.soundclick.com/sealdazeal ~ Bann Final
Hail King Jesus,
seal

[Be Not Afraid]

Hello Seal,

Well, the good news is that the pope isn't God. More good news is that no pope has ever claimed to be God, despite what you've inferred with your quotes. Before I begin my rebuttal, I would advise anyone quoting anything to check your sources. I can find quotes of people saying that George W Bush was the antichrist, it doesn't mean that George W Bush is or ever claimed to be the antichrist.

Now then, let me first point out that the Catholic Church does not, and has never taught that the pope is God---despite what your hearsay proof that five centuries ago "Marcellus" delivered an oration (a speech) and addressed the pope with lofty titles which apparently may have gotten lost in translation.

What the Catholic Church does teach is that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. This simply means that he's God's chief "ambassador" (representative) on earth. This is rooted in many passages of Sacred Scripture, beginning with Jesus' changing Simon's name to Cephas [Peter] (John 1:42) and handing over the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter the chief apostle. (Matt. 16:18-19) and commanding him to feed and tend the flock.(John 21:15-17) The flock is still on earth until the end of time. The Popes occupy the Chair of Peter, just like in the Old Covenant the authority came from God through the Chair or "Seat" of Moses which Jesus alludes to in Matt. 23:2-3

As for the titles given to the pope, these are titles of honor due to the office he holds not the man. We do the same with secular representatives, such as "Her Majesty" "Your Honor" etc.

As for the pope being more than a man, he is not. In fact, I'm sure that Martin Luther was probably holier than some popes. Incidentally, Papal infallibility only applies when the pope speaks in union with the Bishops of the Church in matter of faith and morals. Christ promised to guide the Church throughout the ages. Martin Luther separated himself from the Catholic Church. Luther's teachings are just that: his personal teachings.

[seal]

Well, the good news is that the pope isn't God. More good news is that no pope has ever claimed to be God, despite what you've inferred with your quotes. Before I begin my rebuttal, I would advise anyone quoting anything to check your sources. I can find quotes of people saying that George W Bush was the antichrist, it doesn't mean that George W Bush is or ever claimed to be the antichrist.

Okay....If you are going to discredit a source please post quotes of Pope's saying otherwise. I do check my sources and they are very credible and they certainly got the verbaige and understanding right. Them fools thought they were God's.

Now then, let me first point out that the Catholic Church does not, and has never taught that the pope is God---despite what your hearsay proof that five centuries ago "Marcellus" delivered an oration (a speech) and addressed the pope with lofty titles which apparently may have gotten lost in translation.

Prove it. What does a speech have to do with anything. 5 Centuries ago the people were more intelligent them me and you both. So don't give me that revisionist mumbo jumbo. We understand them exactly as they meant to be understood. Perhaps you are just more watered down. I find most Catholics are now adays..

What the Catholic Church does teach is that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. This simply means that he's God's chief "ambassador" (representative) on earth. This is rooted in many passages of Sacred Scripture, beginning with Jesus' changing Simon's name to Cephas [Peter] (John 1:42) and handing over the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter the chief apostle. (Matt. 16:18-19) and commanding him to feed and tend the flock.(John 21:15-17) The flock is still on earth until the end of time. The Popes occupy the Chair of Peter, just like in the Old Covenant the authority came from God through the Chair or "Seat" of Moses which Jesus alludes to in Matt. 23:2-3

I know where you learned that.

As for the titles given to the pope, these are titles of honor due to the office he holds not the man. We do the same with secular representatives, such as "Her Majesty" "Your Honor" etc.

So God is a Title now....

As for the pope being more than a man, he is not. In fact, I'm sure that Martin Luther was probably holier than some popes. Incidentally, Papal infallibility only applies when the pope speaks in union with the Bishops of the Church in matter of faith and morals. Christ promised to guide the Church throughout the ages. Martin Luther separated himself from the Catholic Church. Luther's teachings are just that: his personal teachings.

What do you do when there are Three Popes at the sametime? Paper, Rock, Scissors? As a Catholic you should know better than to say that Luther's teachings were his personal teachings... He was a Catholic Monk....

[keepingtabs]

All I know is that since Luther, the Protestant side of the church hasn't quit splitting; it has no definitive hierarchy to guide it as far as who or what has the last word on doctrine.

While the Catholic church, at that time and still, had (has)its problems, the lack of faith in God to resolve those problems by those who rebelled and left certainly made a mess of things!

I think the Reformation and all that has since followed, has been one of the biggest errors ever made!

Anyone who isn't in denial can see the 'wonderful' disunity it has wreaked on the Christian world.

Please, I have heard many times the excuses, reasons, et al, for why I'm wrong. So, don't waste your time trying to convince me otherwise.

Yes, on this subject, I have a closed mind!!

[Be Not Afraid]

Hello Seal,

You said:

if you are going to discredit a source please post quotes of Pope's saying otherwise. I do check my sources and they are very credible and they certainly got the verbaige and understanding right.

Anti-Catholic sites are not credible sources. First of all, you quoted text from the "RC New York Catechism". There's no such thing as the "New York Catechism." You're getting your stuff from anti-Catholic sources, most likely lifted from Loraine Boettner's anti-Catholic book "Roman Catholicism." Protestants not realizing how inaccurate and un-scholarly this book is use it for their arguments against the Catholic Church. But that's like going to an atheist anti-religion site to find quotes against Christianity.

The book's citations are vague and impossible to locate the work or the reference. A certain pope will be alleged to have said something--but there is no citation given to support the claim. A Catholic author is alleged to have claimed something---but again: no reference that can be checked.

Here's a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church directly from the Vatican. I guarantee you will not find any silly claims that the pope is God.

The pope is the Vicar of Christ, a representative of Jesus Christ on earth, which is based on Jesus giving Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and the power to bind and loose. (Matthew 16:18-19)

What do you do when there are Three Popes at the same time? Paper, Rock, Scissors? As a Catholic you should know better than to say that Luther's teachings were his personal teachings... He was a Catholic Monk....

There were never 3 or 2 popes at once. Rather, there were times when there were 2 claimants to the office, and once, in the 14th century, there were 3 claimants. No one at the time claimed there could be more than one. Much like in American Politics in a close election, one might ask: Who is the real president? Even if the answer remained unclear for a while, we'd all know there can be only one president at a time. The question was which of the claimants was the true pope. Despite temporary confusion the succession from Peter was never broken. The papacy is not handed on by one bishop to another. A man is pope because the Church recognizes him as bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter.

Luther was an ex-Catholic priest who started his own doctrines. John Calvin was also an ex-Catholic who started his own sect.

Or as Augustine said (...this quote can be easily verified):
"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’. Peter was succeeded by Linus" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

[seal]

First of all, you quoted text from the "RC New York Catechism". There's no such thing as the "New York Catechism."

Now this is a mute point. Take a look at this video....around about the 4:40 point...

http://www.thejesustv.com/main/media/30 ... nd_popery/

This dude reads from the New York Catechism.... But you claims it doesn't exist. Of course you would.

You're getting your stuff from anti-Catholic sources, most likely lifted from Loraine Boettner's anti-Catholic book "Roman Catholicism." Protestants not realizing how inaccurate and un-scholarly this book is use it for their arguments against the Catholic Church. But that's like going to an atheist anti-religion site to find quotes against Christianity.

Now it's quite elusive of you to only focus on that one quote (Which above I prove exist) and not the others which say darn near the same exact thing. As if your supposive discredit of the one quote disproves them all. That's a very very poor attempt to illustrate that Protestants are just misquoting what Catholics believe about them. So at the end of the day those quotes hang Catholics to worshipping or being lead by this Demi God on earth.

The book's citations are vague and impossible to locate the work or the reference. A certain pope will be alleged to have said something--but there is no citation given to support the claim. A Catholic author is alleged to have claimed something---but again: no reference that can be checked.

Well, the Catholics do have a whole heap of books that are probably not in reprint. You'd have to agree with that. Not to mention the books they burned.

The pope is the Vicar of Christ, a representative of Jesus Christ on earth, which is based on Jesus giving Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and the power to bind and loose. (Matthew 16:18-19)

Who claims infallibility like Christ. It's always baffled me how Peter's 2 Epistles made him Pope above...you know..Paul's 2/3 writings of the New Testament. Jesus calls Peter Satan as well. How do you interpret that? Matthew 16:22-23

There were never 3 or 2 popes at once. Rather, there were times when there were 2 claimants to the office, and once, in the 14th century, there were 3 claimants.

So they weren't Popes they were just wanna be's...ooookkkay.... Infallibility just shot if you ask me.

Luther was an ex-Catholic priest who started his own doctrines. John Calvin was also an ex-Catholic who started his own sect.

[/quote]

Luther nailed it to ya door what he believed. They both were willing to work from the inside but they were kicked out. Papal Bull ring a bell? They both even held to particular Catholic beliefs like the LORD's Supper (Luther) and the Perpectual Virginity of Mary (Calvin)....

Nice dialoguing with you....

Grace and Peace,
seal

[Be Not Afraid]

Hello Seal,

Now this is a mute point. Take a look at this video....around about the 4:40 point...This dude reads from the New York Catechism....

Look again, he's not reading the "New York Catechism" He's reading a quote from a book--most likely Loraine Boettner's anti-Catholic book "Roman Catholicism."--which references the "NY Catechism". Protestants do not realize how un-scholarly this book is. Anyone can write a book and cite a made-up reference that nobody bothers to check.

Here's an anti-catholic site which specifically lists the NY Catechism and ironically makes my point.

Can you show me the "New York Catechism"? Why is it so hard to find, yet you can find the Catechism of the Council of Trent written 5 centuries ago? I guarantee you will not find anything in it that says the pope is God. Earlier I gave you a link to the Catechism available on the Vatican's website; were you able to check it out? Did you find anything that said the pope was God?

Seal, I was born and raised Roman Catholic and I was never taught that the pope was God. He's just a man, a sinner, like you and I. There have been bad popes, but the majority have been holy men. Most of the first popes suffered martyrdom and killed under the persecutions. After Christ ascended into heaven the apostles represented God's authority much like a police officer and a judge represent and have the authority of the state. The pope holds the highest office which we Catholics respect.

That's a very very poor attempt to illustrate that Protestants are just misquoting what Catholics believe about them. So at the end of the day those quotes hang Catholics to worshipping or being lead by this Demi God on earth.

Martin Luther's writings are well known and you can read them for yourself from a number of reliable sources.

Here's a good example of the naive being misled. Some people claim the pope is the anti-christ and their proof is a picture of the pope sitting on a chair which has an inverted cross. "Solid proof that he's the anti-christ!!"


Oops, false alarm. In reality, it's just the symbol of Peter's martyrdom (who was crucified upside down):



The truth is that Catholics worship only God: The Most Holy Trinity: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Martin Luther was an ex-Catholic who invented new doctrines in the 16th century.

I'll respond to your other questions later since space here does not allow.

[seal]

Look again, he's not reading the "New York Catechism" He's reading a quote from a book--most likely Loraine Boettner's anti-Catholic book "Roman Catholicism."--which references the "NY Catechism". Protestants do not realize how un-scholarly this book is. Anyone can write a book and cite a made-up reference that nobody bothers to check.

Here's an anti-catholic site which specifically lists the NY Catechism and ironically makes my point.

It's probably out of print. I mean is that impossible to believe? Eitherway, you have yet to deal with the SEVERAL other quotes I posted. Grabbing at straws.

Seal, I was born and raised Roman Catholic and I was never taught that the pope was God.

I'm sure there are a lot of things growing up Catholic you weren't taught. Just b/c you weren't taught the Pope was God on Earth doesn't mean the Catholic Church never believed such a thing.

Here's a good example of the naive being misled. Some people claim the pope is the anti-christ and their proof is a picture of the pope sitting on a chair which has an inverted cross. "Solid proof that he's the anti-christ!!"

Super Straw Man here.

Maybe you are not familiar with the site you are posting on. There are very and I mean very very few of us who believe the Pope is the Anti Christ. That's a ridiculous rendering of the text. G-Demar has a clear explanation of what the anti-Christ is. Peep 1 John.

The truth is that Catholics worship only God: The Most Holy Trinity: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Martin Luther was an ex-Catholic who invented new doctrines in the 16th century.

Catholics clearly worship Mary as well as Peter. I went to a Catholic Inventions (<---something like that) a showing down here in St. Pete and you guys have bones of dead saints people were trying to touch. Never in my life had I seen the Apostle Paul so belittled and I come from a Word of Faith background. Having people pay money to touch dead people bones is beyond foolish and no Spirit of the Scripture of Truth would propose such a thing. So if anyone invented New Doctrine b/c Luther's was backed up by multiple councils peep game sis...Catharage and Orange... it was the Catholics....Tradition over Truth...Papacy over Scripture....Can't stand it...
Grace and Peace,
seal

[Be Not Afraid]

Hello Seal!

You said:

you have yet to deal with the SEVERAL other quotes I posted.

Any quote that claims that the pope is God is either a forgery or a bad translation. Peter was the first pope, and he certainly was not God. Just a simple fisherman. I think you need to study what the title "Vicar of Christ" means.

Just b/c you weren't taught the Pope was God on Earth doesn't mean the Catholic Church never believed such a thing.

Just b/c you read a quote it doesn't mean its authentic. There's a difference between what the Catholic Church teaches and what some people think it teaches. The devil is the enemy of the Church and he spreads lies and half truths to deceive the naive. I would suggest you study the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Better yet, go talk to a Catholic priest. He'll set you straight on the issue.

Catholics clearly worship Mary as well as Peter.

I love the Blessed Virgin Mary, and I honor her in a special way. She's Jesus' mom! and our spiritual mother. We Catholics see her as the Mother of the Church: She is the mother of Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Head of his Body the Church: We are the Church.

As for Peter, no we don't worship him either. He was the first pope. Jesus changed Simon the fisherman's name to "Cephas" which means "rock" (John 1:42). Peter and the apostles are the foundation upon which Jesus built the Church (Ephesians 2:20) Jesus being the chief Corner Stone. In a building, the corner stone is laid upon the rock foundation.

I went to a Catholic Inventions (<-something like that) a showing down here in St. Pete and you guys have bones of dead saints people were trying to touch. Never in my life had I seen the Apostle Paul so belittled. Having people pay money to touch dead people bones is beyond foolish.

The custom of venerating relics of the saints is nothing new. You can get a glimpse of the practice in the New Testament if you read Acts 19:11-12 where handkerchiefs touched by Paul were passed among the people and miracles occurred. There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or Paul that has any power. The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture. Paying to see or touch a relic is against Catholic teaching.

It's always baffled me how Peter's 2 Epistles made him Pope above...you know..Paul's 2/3 writings of the New Testament.

Jesus made him Pope. See John 1:42 and Matthew 16:18-19. Mark, who wrote "the Gospel of Mark", was a disciple of Peter.

Jesus calls Peter Satan as well. How do you interpret that?

In Hebrew the word "Satan" means "adversary." Peter was called "Satan" (Matt. 16:23-25) because he told Jesus to avoid the cross. Jesus explained that to be his disciple one must pick up the cross. Christianity without the cross is demonic.