We Will Be Judged By Our Works of Love

[Gabriel]

Christianity is a call to action. Accepting Jesus as our Lord and savior is merely the first step in our life as followers of Christ. The idea of "Once Saved Always Saved" is an error which has flourished among certain Christian sects. But Scripture is quite clear that not all that say "Lord, Lord" will be saved, but rather, only those who follow the commandments and do God's will. Jesus Christ opened the doors to heaven to all who will respond to His grace. Many, unfortunately do not respond. And even worse, some accept Christ but are luke warm (Revelation 3:16)---which is the worst possible thing a Christian can be at the great judgment at the end of the world.

So who then will be saved? Here's a great video about the Final Judgment an the end of the world:

[Mike Bull]

Gabriel

I agree to a point. However, I believe the Lord completes the good work He began in us. Which means that those who are all words and no action were those whom He NEVER knew.

On the Catholic side of things, and perhaps for motives mixed with works salvation, the Catholic church has a fantastic history of mercy ministries, one that puts Protestants to shame in many ways.

I think the reference to lukewarmness in Rev.3 is actually concerning a lack of sound judgment in the congregation (fire and water being instruments of both preservation [in small quantities] and instruments of judgment [in large quantities]). See:
http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2009/ ... sus-table/

Those who are truly saved will persevere.

Mike

[Gabriel]

MikeBull said:
I agree to a point. However, I believe the Lord completes the good work He began in us. Which means that those who are all words and no action were those whom He NEVER knew.

Mike, we must persevere by never rejecting God's grace. There's the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for Jesus said that there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13).

Those who are truly saved will persevere.

This makes it sound like if God created some souls predestined for hell and others for heaven. This is not the case, since that would deny the concept of free will and make God a monster who creates people for hell, which is not true (Luke 9:56). God is Love itself and desires for all to be saved.

Hell is the punishment for those who reject God's salvation--much like blindness is the punishment for plucking one's own eyes out. God created man to be predestined to heaven, but some will choose to reject it.(John 12: 46-48) Christ opened the doors to heaven, but we must do our part. Salvation is not a matter of listening to the gospel, it's a call to action. We must live it (Luke 6:46). This idea that all we need to do is ask Jesus into our hearts and we win heaven bingo is not quite true. There are requirements:

First: We must repent of our sins and believe in the gospel (Mark 1:15).

Second: We must keep the Commandments of God (Romans 2:13) (John 15:10).

Third: To be a disciple of Jesus we must carry our cross (Mark 8:34-35) (Luke 9:23-24) (Matthew 15:24-25)

Fourth: We must do good works (James 2:17) (Romans 2:6-8)

Fifth: We must persevere until the end of our life, and not stray from the path, or fall back into sin: (2 Peter 2:20-21)

Consider Paul's warning:

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Romans 11:22; see also Hebrews 10:26–29). Paul admitted that even he could fall away (1 Corinthians 9:27). There's also the possibility of self-deception (Matthew 7:22-23).

We must trust in Jesus Christ, however we must not offend God through the sin of presumption. Philippians 2:12 says, " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

As a Roman Catholic, I know that Jesus is my savior (Ephesians 2:5–8), but I’m in the process of being saved (1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15, Philippians 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Romans 5:9–10, 1 Corinthians 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Romans 5:2, 2 Timothy 2:11–13). But all is lost if I turn away from God. We turn away from God when we willfully commit serious sin.

[tomret]

by Gabriel
So who then will be saved? Here's a great video about the Final Judgment an the end of the world:

There are timeless lessons in Mt 25:31f, but how do you see those speaking of "the end of the world?" And why does the RCC teach this is future to the present? Earlier in His Olivet discourse, Jesus said in Mt 24:34 that fulfillment of the things He spoke of would occur before that generation passed. Is it the position of the RCC that Jesus spoke of 2 events, one soon and one distant, in Mt 24-25? If so, where does He change subjects? If not, what is the RCC position?

[Mike Bull]

I went to a Christian conference where they showed Roman Catholics on the streets of Ireland being interviewed about their 'eternal security'. They had none. These people had no hope. They just had to hope they were good enough in the final wash. No assurance = no sure hope. That is not New Testament Christianity.

Tomret - I agree with you, but that is not the issue here. And the same deal applies to the final judgment anyway, just on a greater scale. Garden, Land, World.

[Gabriel]

Mike Bull said:
No assurance = no sure hope. That is not New Testament Christianity.

I've given you Scriptural passages which prove that the Once Saved Always Saved scenario is a false idea. Wishful thinking. It's rather a dumb idea if you really think about it. Just study the Scriptural quotes I provided above. That should set you straight. God gives you the grace to be faithful. However you are free to choose to reject His grace.

These people had no hope.

The Catholic Church calls us to have faith and hope in Jesus Christ. But we must also turn away from sin. You can say you love God all you want, but if you are not keeping the commandments, your eternal security is out the window.

tomret said:
There are timeless lessons in Mt 25:31f, but how do you see those speaking of "the end of the world?"

It's the teaching of the Church since the 1st century. God will gather all the nations and separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep will go into eternal life and the goats into eternal damnation.

And why does the RCC teach this is future to the present? Earlier in His Olivet discourse, Jesus said in Mt 24:34 that fulfillment of the things He spoke of would occur before that generation passed.

If you take "generation" as you typically think of a generation, Jesus' prophecy refers to the destruction of the Temple, which was built purposely to be a representation of the universe/world.

If you take "generation" to be something marked by the covenants, then generation refers to the body of time between the Redemption and His second coming, in which case, the prophecy is one of an undetermined date of fulfillment.

In Catholic theology, prophecy is often a both/and situation. Jesus was not only predicting the fall of the Temple, but also the wiping away of the old earth/heaven and the creation of the new earth/heaven at Judgment.

[Brother Les]

Is there no 'Reformed' 'Defenders of The Faith' .... of Salvation by Faith through Grace, ALONE? (I am not 'Reform', I am Arminian....what ever that is)

The "Hebrew' writer says that 'Salvation' can be lost.... "James" is preaching 'Works' all over the place.... What say 'you', 'Reformers'.

(Note: I do not 'agree' with 'Gabriel' on this, for I am a 'FP'and understand 'Hebrew' and 'James' from that 'Paradiym'.... TULIP fails... and all 'Reformers' should know why. Receiving Gods Grace of Salvation does not doom one to 'Works' all the days of ones life to 'Show' that he is a 'Christian)


(What was all of that chanting on the movie, I don't speak French) If the commentor was speaking -during- the transitional period (30AD-70AD)of the OC to the NC, his words would have worked very well in their metephoric language styl. But since we are fully in the NC Age World, the commentors words are mute for a 'Future Judgment' for we HAVE Been Judged already and by 'that' Judgment it is determined where you will spend all eternity. We do 'Works' because we are the Children of God. Not Heirs "to the Throne' (future) but reigning on Thrones right now (present). Act like the King you are, act like the Priest your are and don't 'Hope for', something you already have. Salvation is Free and no 'works' are involved. Faith alone by Grace alone, to be an eternal Son of God.

Brother Les

[JTownsend]

As a reformed kinda guy... here are my thoughts.

John 10:28-29 states that no one can be snatched from Christs hand, or God's hand. If this is the case then once you are saved, then you are always saved, for salvation cannot be taken away. John 6:39 mimics these statements. We cannot snatch ourselves from God's hand, for if God is holding us, then our salvation is resting on his strength alone to hold us and not of ourselves to stay in his hand.

The question should be "Are those that profess Christ, yet do not persevere, saved?"
1 Peter 1:5, John 8:31,32, and Matt 10:22 give us some insight. From these passages I would say that those who claim salvation are not truly saved unless they persevere, that salvation cannot be lost, and that only by persevering can we give evidence of our salvation, though only God (and Christ) knows if we are truly saved.

To stay on topic, we are commanded to do good works, whether our salvation is Arminian or Calivn in nature. And assuredly scripture teaches that those who are leaders of the Christian faith will be held to a higher standard. Thus being the case, we will be judged by our works. Also we see in the parable of the talents, God judged his servants by their profitability and blessed each one as they were profitable. So again we see that God rewards our works. From the parable of the talents we also see that those without works are "wicked servants" who are cast out of God's service - likewise God commands us to do Good works and that those who follow God will have good fruits.

To think that we can lose our salvation means that we can be in God's hand and then be taken from it... or even jump out of God's hand. This would mean that God can grant us salvation but then we can be taken from Him. This makes God and Christ insufficient to grant us salvation and too weak to make good on His promises. It also means our salvation becomes dependent upon our own actions and ability to stay in God's hand. Though our deeds might be rewarded accordingly, I still understand that it is God alone who gives us salvation by grace through faith, not by our works.

[Gabriel]

JTownsend said:
To think that we can lose our salvation means that we can be in God's hand and then be taken from it... or even jump out of God's hand. This would mean that God can grant us salvation but then we can be taken from Him. This makes God and Christ insufficient to grant us salvation and too weak to make good on His promises. It also means our salvation becomes dependent upon our own actions and ability to stay in God's hand.

Look at it this way: God saved the world and opened the doors to heaven for all, however many will be lost. This is because many will reject God's salvation. That's why Scripture warns us and implores us to persevere until the end of our life. Thus, it is not God that is taking anyone out of His hand, it's that many who are in His hand freely choose to take themselves out. Scripture confirms this:

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Romans 11:22; see also Hebrews 10:26–29). Paul admitted that even he could fall away (1 Corinthians 9:27). There's also the possibility of self-deception (Matthew 7:22-23).

Peter drives the point even further in 2 Peter 2:20-21

[tomret]

by Gabriel

tomret said:
There are timeless lessons in Mt 25:31f, but how do you see those speaking of "the end of the world?"

It's the teaching of the Church since the 1st century...

I was looking for Scriptural reference about the world ending, but no matter, I see the 1985 NJB still renders 'aion' as 'world' in Mt 24:3 instead of 'age.' Older Protestant Bibles do also, but modern ones properly render it 'age.' If the disciples meant to ask about the end of the world - literal passing of heaven and earth - surely they would have used 'kosmos.'

And why does the RCC teach this is future to the present? Earlier in His Olivet discourse, Jesus said in Mt 24:34 that fulfillment of the things He spoke of would occur before that generation passed.

If you take "generation" as you typically think of a generation, Jesus' prophecy refers to the destruction of the Temple, which was built purposely to be a representation of the universe/world.

Those listening to Jesus would have understood Him to mean their generation. The Temple was a symbol of God's OC relationship with His people (heaven and earth). This is what Jesus said would pass before a jot or tittle would pass from the Law (Mt 5:18; cf Heb 8:13).

If you take "generation" to be something marked by the covenants, then generation refers to the body of time between the Redemption and His second coming, in which case, the prophecy is one of an undetermined date of fulfillment.

At http://www.catholic.com//library/Rapture.asp the rebuttal of premillennialism cites Mt 16:27. If we read on, Mt 16:28 narrows the time considerably, to that of the lifetime of some standing there, their generation.

In Catholic theology, prophecy is often a both/and situation. Jesus was not only predicting the fall of the Temple, but also the wiping away of the old earth/heaven and the creation of the new earth/heaven at Judgment.

Dispensationalists also hold to your traditions that 2 Pe 3:10-12 are about the destruction of the literal elements of heaven and earth. But, Gal 4:3,9; Col 2:8;2:20 speak of the elements (stoicheion) of training and ceremonies of the Old Covenant system. These are the elements that were to pass away, and this was what Peter was addressing in 2 Pe 3:10 -12. According to 2 Pe 3:13-14, Peter and his readers expected that passing in their time. Seems to have been lost in the "Apostolic succession."

The Old Covenant and its attendant ceremonies, the old heaven and earth, came to a final end at the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. The resulting inferno was certainly an intense heat, anything combustible was completely destroyed, gold and silver within the temple melted and ran into the rubble. Thus ended the elements of the OC age (Mt 24:3).

[JTownsend]

Gabriel,
You said:

... Thus, it is not God that is taking anyone out of His hand, it's that many who are in His hand freely choose to take themselves out...

Your position presumes that ALL are saved even before their acceptance of Christ as Savior because Christ died for ALL sin. You position requires men, through their own efforts, to choose God. And here is where you position really breaks down because you are only left with an impossible position:

All men are totally sin free from Christs death and therefore all man's thoughts are no longer corrupted by sin. In this sin free state their sin free minds willingly reject God and His Christ. All men must make a conscious choice to stay in God's hand - and therefore Salvation is dependent on the actions of man and not those of Christ. Your quote of Romans 11:22 requires the efforts of man to stay in God's hand, thereby making salvation come by man's own works instead of faith in Christ. If it is by my decision that I stay in God's hand, then it is by my works that I have or retain my own salvation. Yes God provides me with Salvation, but it would then be mine only by my own efforts.

If I, by my own efforts, am the one to retain my salvation, then by what action(s) do I lose salvation? How is it possible that my sin corrupted thoughts be glorified to willingly choose that which is sinless? It would mean that which is sinful can willingly choose that which is right and please God. How is this possible?

Now what happens to those who die immediately after Christ paid for all sin? Would they all go to heaven, even those who were unrepentant? According to your philosophy they would have to go to Heaven since they would be free from sin and still in the Father's hand. If we accept this then unrepentant sinners will go to live with God for all time.

Your position just doesn't make sense. There are too many problems associated with it.

Yes, we will be judged according to our works, but our works do not and can not save us.

[Gabriel]

JTownsend said:
Your position presumes that ALL are saved even before their acceptance of Christ as Savior because Christ died for ALL sin.

"I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance." (Luke 5:32) (Matthew 9:13) (Mark 2:17) The word "gospel" means good news. The good news is that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand; all are called to repent and be baptized. We will be judged by what we know; for example, a just man living on a remote island who never was preached the gospel, has a possibility of being saved. God knows what's in people's hearts and how they respond to His grace.

"If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." John 15:22

You position requires men, through their own efforts, to choose God.

God chooses man, yet not all men choose God. Man must repent in order to be saved and go to heaven. In the Old Testament, no matter how much one repented of sin, heaven's gates were still closed. Christ conquered death and is our Eternal Mediator before God. But salvation, though a gift from God, must be responded to by man. The young man asked Jesus what he must do to go to heaven, Christ responded: Keep the commandments.

Your quote of Romans 11:22 requires the efforts of man to stay in God's hand, thereby making salvation come by man's own works instead of faith in Christ.

Works do not save us, neither does faith. Is faith your savior? Jesus is the only savior. We are saved by grace-- a free gift that we are free to reject.

If it is by my decision that I stay in God's hand, then it is by my works that I have or retain my own salvation.

If you accept Jesus Christ and follow the commandments you shall be saved. If tomorrow you commit adultery, your salvation is lost if you don't repent.
"‘Why do you call me "Lord, Lord," and not do what I tell you?’" (Luke 6:46). "'Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’" (Matthew 7:21).

then by what action(s) do I lose salvation?

Through serious sin. Peter makes a very eloquent explanation in 2 Peter 2: 20-21

How is it possible that my sin corrupted thoughts be glorified to willingly choose that which is sinless?

God gives us the grace to do His will. But some choose their own ways. 2 Peter 2: 20-21

we will be judged according to our works, but our works do not and can not save us.

I never said they did. Faith does not save you either. Jesus is savior; but faith and good works are required by those who wish to embrace His salvation. You cannot reach heaven through faithlessness and bad works. Christ opened the doors to heaven and gives us the grace to respond. But you are still free to reject that gift. And many do.