Charismania vs Cessationism

[Grackle]

Hi, John

I agree with you. In fact, in 1Cor 14:39-40 Paul spoke against the two extremes-- cessationism on hand, and charismania (disorder) on the other.

"As long as there is a body, that should be the case."

Amen. Cessationism missed the vital points of 1Cor 12. Early I spoke of 'building according to revealed pattern' Ex 25:40; I was intending to lead to the idea that Jesus could not had left it to the apostles to 'invent church'. He most likely would have taught them church building, setting a pattern for HIS corporate body. Here in 1Cor 12, Paul's analogy (for the context of the gifts) provided clues:

Just as a natural body possesses natural members with natural functions/abilities, a spiritual body would possess spiritual members with spiritual functions/abilities-- the charismata (12:12, 27-28). Cessationism in effect says that this spirituality has ceased and now the Church only lives by the natural and intellectual abilities of its members. This cannot be the Church the apostles built! Paul's model and the Cessationist's model of church are just too different to be the same.

While still on this 'body' context, it is important to note that the charismata should not be confused with miracles for unbelievers, personal miracles, sovereign miracles, etc. Note that the apostles and 72 others were already able to heal BEFORE the Spirit was given. But the gifts of 1Cor 12 are "manifestations/demonstrations" by the Spirit of the Body (12:7). The healings by apostles and evangelists may not be the same thing as the charismata. Being separate issues, one cannot be used as proof of cessation/continuation of the other I reckon.

[keepingtabs]

Cessationism in effect says that this spirituality has ceased and now the Church only lives by the natural and intellectual abilities of its members.

Exactly what we have today. A powerless, useless, non-relevant excuse for a church. Running itself like a business with pastors thinking they are CEOs, etc.

Thanks Holy Spirit! Now that you've started the church, we don't need you any longer! We can do it ourselves!! HA!!

[Aduro]

I've been really busy lately, but I managed to remember this post.

...Not sure about all the gifts. I was only commenting on that particular gift of instantaneous, miraculous healing...

Without really looking, I think we seem to agree that "gifts" probably ceased at some point, so I'll leave this post with a frivolous bump.

Sorry, you lost me there. Why the hostile tone?

You only read it that way.

No, I realize there are many gifts.

Okay.

[Grackle]

To clarify my last comment further:
If we just look at 'healing', you would find that within the Church context that there are in fact several ways for a Christian to receive healing. James spoke of healings by Elders and fervent intercession (Jas 5:14-18). These are properly 'mercy' healings. But 'grace' healings -- the charism may be different. From my observation, the charismatic one is often accompanied by word of knowledge or the discernment of spirits and quite spontaneous, requiring 'little effort' since it is supposed to be a 'grace' or 'charism'. It always amazed me, that even less than perfect Christians can perform this charism, and to confess, I cannot.
Some more differences. Intercession may be from a distance. The elders' healing suggests a home scenario when the patient is too sick to move.
By contrast, the charismata of 1Cor are set in a church meeting context. This raises another of my conflicts with Cessationism. Here are the verses for the context:(1Cor 11:17,18,20,23,34, 14:6,19,23,26,28,35). "Gathered together", "In the church", "when I come to you", etc. The purpose of the charismata with the Lord's Table is in fact a part of 'liturgy'. One celebrated the gift of the Son, the other the gift of the Holy Spirit.
It is implausible that God permits man to invent worship and decide what is sacred. God determines how we should worship him. The apostles being Jewish would have known that especially well in the light of Israel's experience. I believe that Lord through his apostles set the standard for the Church and that standard was charismatic. I cannot see any other approved form in the letters.
Or perhaps my eyes are bad. Can any of the cessationists here point out from the NT Scriptures that their form is in accord with the apostles' teachings?
Thanks.

[keepingtabs]

Here's a question. Are we finished having any 'last days'? Will there be anymore changes as per 2 Pet 3:10-13. If this has already occurred, when did it happen. As far as I know, this is the same earth that has been around since it was created.

If there are no more 'last days', then what we have is all there will ever be, which is a sad state of affairs. (Which I do not believe.)

If we are in a period (age) that will end at some point in time, then there is still a future 'last days'. (Which I do believe.)

Although there are many references to 'last days' which referred to the end of the OT covenant, and which have been fulfilled, many prophecies have multiple applications and there is still a future 'last days' which have yet to come.

As to Joel's prophecy, there was a 1st century application, but as has been shared earlier by Grackle

I do not think that Peter taught that the prophecy of Joel was utterly fulfilled:
(1) The prophecy itself contained a 'terminus quo'-- "all mankind /all flesh"
(2) Christ himself said, "Beginning" in Jerusalem (Lk 24:47)
(3) Peter concluded his sermon, "those who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call" (Acts 2:39)
So the best stand is "being fulfilled".

there is a continuing fulfilling as there will be a future time the fulfillment will be competed.

I'm just sorry that those who have based their claims of cessation on Joel's prophecy no longer wish to debate the question. Silence is usually a sign of the lack of a good rebuttal.

[Lumberjack]

Hello James,
Since American Vision relies on church history to affirm some of their teachings, I believe you and Dr. DeMar will find the following quote somewhat interesting.

" Typical of the second - century reports is this one from Irenaeus ( ca. 125 - 202 ) in his Against Heresies, Book 1:

' For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ] and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? Is it not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church, [ scattered ] throughout the world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts to this day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [ on account of such miraculous interpositions ]. For as she has received freely from God, freely does she also minister to others.'

The historical record from every century of chuch history contains reports similar to Irenaeus' testimony "

Quoted from Power Healing by John Wimber and Kevin Springer pp. 41 - 42

Regards, Lumberjack

[keepingtabs]

Knock, knock! Hello! Anybody home out there?

[Grackle]

The silence is hurting my ears.
Let's reprise some Cessationist arguments.
(1) The gifts were for a sign to unbelieving Israel. Once the OC was annulled, and Israel destroyed, the gifts stopped. This one seems preferred by many Preterist but futurist Cessationists also use it. The supporting Scripture is 1Cor 14:20-22
(2) Admits to the gifts as for edification of the Church, but pending the completion of the NT Canon. The charismata were 'scaffolding'; when the Canon was completed, the scaffolding was taken down. This metaphor is not given by any NT writer so is a modern invention derived from the argument that 1Cor 13:8-10's 'perfect' meant 'perfect revelation'. Since the Canon (a revelation) is complete, it must be 'perfect revelation', therefore 'the perfect' of that passage.
(3) The gifts were 'foundational'. You can lay a foundation only once. Subsequently you would be building other things on the foundation. Since the foundation building is over, the gifts are over. This one is always based on the apostles and prophets as foundation according to Eph 2:20 and argued with (4) below.
(4) The gifts were to attest the apostles. The apostles were foundational. When they died, the gifts died away. This one depends on Heb 2:3-4

These points are argued in various mix.

Refutation to (1): Divine gifts rest on the character of God and are given based on the relationship between the Giver and the recipients. Cessationism turns this into a joke. Tongues, for example, according to Cessationism, were given not for the edification of the speaker (14:4), nor for the benefit of the Church (12:7), but to warn unbelieving Jews!(14:22) They are not gifts in the way we understand gifts. God gave them not because he loved the Church, but he did not like unbelieving Jews. Therefore, once Israel was destroyed and the OC annulled, tongues stopped. (15 sec for laughter). But what happened to prophecy, which in 14:22 was stated to be FOR BELIEVERS. Have believers been destroyed and the NC annulled, so that stopped?

[john_rowland]

Grackle,

I would add to that: some of the gifts listed in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 are service (i.e. service to the Church) oriented and are presented as necessary for the proper functioning of the body, as we have discussed before. That is one reason that we define what is meant when we say "cessation". Googling the term finds a spectrum of definitions even among Reformed believers.

[keepingtabs]

The problem I have with the cessationists use of 1 Cor. 13:10 is their propensity to pick and choose what has ceased, as well as plucking this one verse out of context.

What will be done away? Everything that is partial!

"But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away";"if there is knowledge, it will be done away" (1 Cor. 13:8)

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part" (1 Cor. 13:9)

This is where the picking and choosing come in. They want to do away with prophecy and keep knowledge!

Ridiculous!! Ya gotta do away with all of it or none of it!

Now for context!

Paul's context is the EXCELLENCE of LOVE! He is saying if you do not have love as the motivation behind the operation of the gifts, their use is likened to; a noisy gong or a clanging symbol; you being nothing; you profiting nothing!

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." (1 Cor. 13:12)

Now, the time of partiality. Then, when the perfect, JESUS, comes!

To say that the perfect is the Canon of the Scriptures is not only ludicrous, but idiotic!! It's so perfect, we can't agree on what they say! It is so perfect we have whatever flavor of the hour you want to pick as far as demonations (denominations for those who don't get it)! It's so perfect that this forum and others elsewhere NEVER run out of topics to debate! It's so perfect that there are no original manuscripts and all translations have the built-in bias of the translators! Common on now, the only thing perfect is Jesus the Christ of which the Scriptures speak!

But, it's all there to be read and understood by the simplest minded person and chosen to be ignored, twisted, shoehorned by those who think themselves brilliant, educated, leaders of men!

It takes leadership, full of the Holy Spirit to discern when someone is operating in the flesh or in the Spirit and if the truth be known it's a lot less work to just say the gifts are no longer operational than it is to be in tune with the Spirit of God enough to allow, encourage their use and exercise discipline when correction is needed!

Proverbs 14:4 states, "Where no oxen are, the manger is clean, But much revenue comes by the strength of the ox.

Those leaders denying the Gifts of the Spirit today would rather have a clean manger!!

[Grackle]

That is one reason that we define what is meant when we say "cessation".

OK.
The Letter to the Romans can shed some light on a functional definition of what cessation would have meant to Paul's audience. The Roman church was contemporary with the Corinthian and was similarly charismatic. They knew about charismata (Rom 1:7, 12:6). How would they take it when Paul flatly declared, "the charismata and calling of God are irrevocable "? (Rom 11:29).

The Romans, though they understood Paul was speaking of Israel, could look at their own charismata and calling and understood that the Christian Church, possessing a superior Covenant, a superior calling could not come behind in gifts. It stands to reason that if God would not revoke Israel's charismata, neither would he revoke Christ's (his Body's). Therefore however the gifts would cease, it would never be in the sense of 'revoked'. Yet Cessationism seems to adopt this sense, it holds that gifts were 'withdrawn' which is the same as 'revoked'.

If God did not revoke them, how would they be ceased? Simple logic provides the answer. They will cease because of the want of a meaningful and beneficial opportunity to operate them.

This is real world logic: A driver would not drastically lose his skill to drive when his car is taken from him. But he ceases to drive.

Imagine a Corinthian Christian with prophetic and healing gifts, who while the church was charismatic, died and went to the Lord. In Heaven, beings can see and hear God directly, and there would no one sick up there. So this believer, even if he still possessed the gifts, would not have the opportunity to operate them. For him the gifts 'ceased' even while back at Corinth they were not.

So God need not, and did not revoke any charismata. But they will cease. They will cease when they are overtaken by better functionalities and a better existence. We can say that the charismata of 1Cor 12 are 'partial' spiritual abilities but they will be replaced by 'perfect' spiritual abilities. But they cannot be revoked nor ceased in the Cessationist's sense.

[tetrahedron]

I don't see any reason to suspect that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased at the death of the last apostle. The early church fathers refer to ongoing miracles in their day, even in the 2nd and 3rd centuries and beyond.

This is of course though nothing like what the Pentecostals believe. I've never witnessed it myself but I've heard others describe what goes on in those churches to be more akin to demonic possession than manifestations of the Holy Spirit.