Patriarchy - putting women in a straitjacket

[learning]

I believe that the Bible is clear about the role of men as pastors and elders in the church but what I find disturbing is the belief among many Christians that male dominion extends into commerce and industry. What if you have a daughter who has the talent of a Marie Curie ? Maybe I have an incorrect version of what patriarchy is but for me when I hear the word I think of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

[Catie]

That's a shame that that's what you think of when you hear the word "patriarch," learning. I watched that video and it's rather degrading to both sexes. To me, the patriarch is the leader, the provider, and MUST exemplify dominion in his home. His helpmate, being the weaker vessel (yes, we are), must nurture, support, as well as provide IN the home. These are how the two are equally yolked. Of course these are not the only ingredients for a marriage but I believe for a lasting one.

The Bible is very clear about the role of men but also for the role of women. For instance, the Proverbs 31 woman. This is described as "A Worthy Woman." She is a wife, mother, as well as a business woman. Most of all she is godly. The Lord has provided us all with many talents and skills. If you have a daughter who aspires to be a chemist or work for NASA, that's great! Who's to say that's not God's will for her life?

[shotgun]

Amen Catie,

I would also like to add something I've been thinking on lately. "Economics" is really just "house law."

It used to be that everyone (every family) employed themselves to a degree. The home was the source of survival and stability. Everyone worked for the common good of the home. In this situation, the woman being the manager of the "home" would be a very respectable and demanding position. It would work beautifully with the elements of God's glory created in women.

Of course this notion of "home" has been so bastardized by our current "messianic statism" that the state now is the "man" of the house...and the true men must either kneal to him and be the "woman" in the relationship, or be lost in a haze of doubt, uncertainty and low self-esteem.

The woman is even more of a victim in this un-Godly situation. She sees her man being an emasculated pawn of the state while at the same time trying to hold true to her traditional values and stay cooped up in what has become more of a prison than a true economic machine meant to maintain social order.

Somone has a lot to answer for in our society...

[matthollycart]

You can go to an unbiblical extreme with just about any issue. I remember in the Church I used to belong to judged me because my wife was sewing and selling clothes on ebay. I had lost my job and couldn't find anything worth my time, so I took care of the household duties and my wife sewed and made money for us.

People at the Church thought my wife shouldn't be the one making money. But at the time, it was the best option. Why should I work 40 hours a week making 7.00 an hour when my wife can make more money sewing for a few of hours a day? I waited until I could find a higher paying job that I would stick with for a longer period of time. Now I work for the electric company and have a decent paying, steady job.

But I do believe in the man being the leader and provider. I don't believe women should get to vote on their own either. There should be household voting. Women voting on their own is disastrous.

I saw a sign on our street appealing to people to pass some kind of law or bill and it said "For Angela's sake" (It wasn't the real name on the sign, I forget what the name was). The picture was of a little girl. It was a complete appeal to emotion. Pass this bill/law because your emotions are all worked up over it; not that it makes any logical sense. I can imagine all the women voting for that "for the little girl's sake".

So there is an element of patriarchy that is completely politically incorrect, even among Christians. We try to appeal to the politically correct crowd and prove to them we aren't so bad, instead of being proud of what the Bible teaches on issues. What if the Bible did teach that women are not to make income or work outside the house ever? Would you defend that idea or be ashamed?

[learning]

You can go to an unbiblical extreme with just about any issue. I remember in the Church I used to belong to judged me because my wife was sewing and selling clothes on ebay. I had lost my job and couldn't find anything worth my time, so I took care of the household duties and my wife sewed and made money for us.

People at the Church thought my wife shouldn't be the one making money. But at the time, it was the best option. Why should I work 40 hours a week making 7.00 an hour when my wife can make more money sewing for a few of hours a day? I waited until I could find a higher paying job that I would stick with for a longer period of time. Now I work for the electric company and have a decent paying, steady job.

Your real life example is what I meant by a straitjacket. I think it is great that you worked as a team to solve the problem. The Bible does put the man head of the household and I am in agreement with that but the man can delegate a task at any given time that he feels is beneficial for his family. I have seen families try to implement their version of the patriarchal model with destructive consequences. The man wants to micromanage the family into bondage. I grew up in a church that spent a lot of time talking about wives being submissive but seemed to gloss over the fact that husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

What if the Bible did teach that women are not to make income or work outside the house ever? Would you defend that idea or be ashamed?

I would defend it if I thought the Bible taught it but I think there are many female examples such as Lydia, Deborah and Phoebe that I don't think it prohibits outside work.

[shotgun]

By the way...

That youtube clip had me ROLLING on the floor laughing...

I mean...how DARE she not advocate a gold standard!

[JLVaughn]

Shotgun,

By the way...

That youtube clip had me ROLLING on the floor laughing...

I mean...how DARE she not advocate a gold standard!

I haven't seen the video but, it seems to me that a bank is in debt to you, paper is worse than dross, and neither the bank nor the government should be entrusted or trusted to protect your assets.

The safest place to keep your money then is gold jewelry hidden under your wife's burka.

Ultimately, every form of imagined patriarchy must give up power to the woman, power that it claims is not hers.

[JTownsend]

I'm not sure I should have... but I laughed at that video.

I think most people think of patriarchy like that... and it is totally an un-Biblical view. The Bible describes patriarchy as husband leadership while the husband and wife continue in their joint task of dominion, each person working in specific roles, supporting one another in God honoring order and love. Most people view it as men holding women under their thumbs and whipping women into obedience.

I one of those wackos that think the Bible says male leadership should extend into industry, along with every other part of life. This view does not state that women are not intelligent or capable but rather that God has ordained a certain order. For example, my wife is absolutely brilliant. There are some in my family who are convinced I have her brainwashed because she actually wants to stay at home. In the Biblical view of patriarchy (which starts in Genesis) we should see husbands protecting their wives and daughters and leading them into greater things - inhibiting them only for matters of honoring God or for their own safety. Because a husband is the leader of his family, he is of necessity leading the families business ventures.

Anyway, that is at least a look at how I view things. Please make sure to check out the thread on Biblical manhood where we are talking about the role of men in light of scripture.

[Azaliah]

That's a shame that that's what you think of when you hear the word "patriarch," learning. I watched that video and it's rather degrading to both sexes. To me, the patriarch is the leader, the provider, and MUST exemplify dominion in his home. His helpmate, being the weaker vessel (yes, we are), must nurture, support, as well as provide IN the home. These are how the two are equally yolked. Of course these are not the only ingredients for a marriage but I believe for a lasting one.

The Bible is very clear about the role of men but also for the role of women. For instance, the Proverbs 31 woman. This is described as "A Worthy Woman." She is a wife, mother, as well as a business woman. Most of all she is godly. The Lord has provided us all with many talents and skills. If you have a daughter who aspires to be a chemist or work for NASA, that's great! Who's to say that's not God's will for her life?

What a beautiful perspective, from an example of a Godly woman's heart. I can't comment much more but than to hope more Godly woman like you are in this world, "giving birth" to these values.

[JLVaughn]

I believe that the Bible is clear about the role of men as pastors and elders in the church but what I find disturbing is the belief among many Christians that male dominion extends into commerce and industry. What if you have a daughter who has the talent of a Marie Curie ? Maybe I have an incorrect version of what patriarchy is but for me when I hear the word I think of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

The Proverbs 31 woman had a job outside the home, a separate investment portfolio, and male servants and employees of her own. She stands as a counter-example to the standard Christian version of patriarchy.

In Greek, there is one word for wife/woman and one for husband/man. In 1 Tim. 2, try wife and husband when the words are singular. And be aware that vs. 15 is mistranslated in almost every translation. The correct translation is

and she (woman/wife) shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they (wife and husband) remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

1 Tim. 2 does not place all women under all men. The passage is a command to church leaders to never place a woman over her husband. It is not done outside the church. It has never been done outside the church. Therefore, it is not to be done inside the church.

[JTownsend]

JL,
I think you paint the proverbs 31 woman wrong. I reviewed the passage just to make sure.

I didn't read that she had any male servants.
I didn't read that she had any "seperate" investment portfolio.
I didn't even read that she had a job outside of the home.

Yes, she had servants. Yes she had an entrepreneurial spirit and considered "investments" but nowhere does it say it was "separate" from her husband or her husbands leadership. Yes, she even showed that same entrepreneurial spirit by creating a business selling sashes to merchants but business ownership is much different than "having a job outside the home". And I think someone could easily make the argument that most of the work was done inside the home, just selling it was done in the market.

As much as you seem to want Proverbs 31 to point to an independent career oriented woman, who also took care of her home, it just doesn't say that.

The problem with Patriarchy is that many (I tend to think mostly women) think it means subjugation to unjust and ungodly male authority. Nothing is farther from the truth. God never condones such behavior.

The proverbs 31 woman was intelligent and hard working, taking care of her family and home, even pursuing entrepreneurial ideas to some extent. This doesn't sound anything like supporting the false idea of patriarchy that some spout - that she would be pressed under the ungodly authority of some unjust man. She is radiates power and ability and blessing. The proverbs 31 lady would be the perfect compliment to a God fearing leader of his family as the two work in a joint dominion calling with a view on multi-generational faithfullness, realizing that each has a different and separate role with unique and separate duties.

It reminds me of how people throughout time have demonized people and ideas that they don't like. Today people demonize patriarchy - but to their own expense.
Patriarchy protects women under Godly authority and justice, raising them up to be radiant jewels for God, pure and without blemish. Without Biblical patriarchy you have weak men not leading their families and lording over their wives. It is Biblical Patriarchy that makes women safe and free. It is the ungodly misrepresentation of Patriarchy that enslaves and causes fear.

[lizzyd]

I didn't read that she had any "seperate" investment portfolio.

The Proverb talks about how she uses "her earnings." They are hers and she uses them as she sees fit.

And I think someone could easily make the argument that most of the work was done inside the home, just selling it was done in the market.

Was the market outside the home?

As much as you seem to want Proverbs 31 to point to an independent career oriented woman, who also took care of her home, it just doesn't say that.

This chapter gives many indications of just such a woman. Why is that hard to swallow?