Polygamy: Legalism or Sexism

[Azaliah]

Thats a horrible name for this post, it's 3:35 in the morning, what do you expect.

There has been a bit of controversy on the forums about sexism and racism, and one of our members was somewhat "villified" for his beliefs, and I thought it was my turn to be shot at. Since I have firm beliefs in some issues I am almost positive that many of you will disagree with on so many levels. When I say firm, I don't imply concretely firm, or that I practice such "firm" just that I believe it ideologically.

Statement (I feel like HK-47, if you don't know who this is ignore this parenthetical):
1: I believe that polygamy is not a sin in and of itself.
2: I have not found anywhere in the Bible where Polygamy is specifically condemned, while it has been implied that the practice has caused issues, I see no grounds that polygamy is resricted.
3: I believe polygamy was not discouraged under the Oral Law nor the Levitical Law.
4: I believe the argument against polygamy, being that "one man and one woman" is highly unsubstantiated, if there is any real substance to that argument, then I argue by the same token there is less substance substantiating core theological beliefs we have today.
5: I believe that it is unlikely God would mention, working on the Sabbath was a sin, and fail to mention something as drastic as polygamy being a sin.
6. I believe that not only was polygamy not a sin, that on numerous occasions God used it, and blessed it.
7. I believe that polygamy is not in anyway degrading woman's values or freedoms (while it surely could, the act alone does not necessarily dictate that). In such cases, it extends a woman's authority.
8. I believe in cases where a woman is often alone with no friends or helps, polygamy gives her helpers, and other woman to socialize with and comfort her in loneliness.
9. I believe the scriptures regarding "A husband of one wife" used to condemn polygamy refer to A. Members of the Clergy, and B. Literally mean, "not a womanizer".
10. I believe you are not likely to believe this.....lol

Ok, fire away.

[UbiDubium]

Do you believe that it's ok for

1. One man to have many wives

and

2. One woman to have many husbands

I think you're on thin ice with this. I think the Bible generally implies the one-man-one-woman paradigm as the best arrangement.

[lizzyd]

Azaliah, I agree with your points. In fact in the interracial thread, one poster mentioned something along the lines of "the Bible doesn't mention that a woman should always be under her father's authority, it was just custom at the time so they didn't have to right it down." I immediately thought of plural marriage and wondered if this poster would make the same argument for it.

Anyway, the only points I can think to add to your list:
- there are no examples of polygamy in the New Testament or early church
- the Bible speaks of the marriage relationship as representative of Christ and the Church. Strictly speaking, there is one Christ and one Church.

[tetrahedron]

Statement (I feel like HK-47,

NERD!

I don't know enough to make a definite statement either way, but there does seem to be many examples in the Old Testament (Moses, David, Jacob, etc) of men having multiple wives. The only place I remember polygamy being specifically condemned is Deuteronomy 17:17 which forbids kings from having a large number of wives.

Polygamy could be along the lines of slavery. Slavery is not condemned by the Bible but we've found that it's simply better to do without it (I've heard someone say that for someone to condemn slavery in the 1st century would be akin to someone telling us we should all give up our automobiles today).

[James]

I don't know enough to make a definite statement either way, but there does seem to be many examples in the Old Testament (Moses, David, Jacob, etc) of men having multiple wives.

You need to be careful when you get close to saying that "because so and so did it in the Bible" it probably isn't wrong. I don't think you are saying that here though.

David, a man after God's own heart, committed adultery yet we couldn't make the claim that adultery is ok.

When we look at the New Testament we come across multiple passages such as 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 that tell us, among other things, an elder should have only one wife. Take note of the entire list though. Are these extra-righteous qualities that would apply to only certain Christians? I don't see another list elsewhere that shows what qualities a "normal" Christian should possess. I don't think you can make a case that these are qualities that only apply to certain Christians. They apply to all.

[Azaliah]

Do you believe that it's ok for

1. One man to have many wives

and

2. One woman to have many husbands

I think you're on thin ice with this. I think the Bible generally implies the one-man-one-woman paradigm as the best arrangement.

Sure, as much as it implies woman should never so much as speak at all in church. I don't believe there is enough evidence to state that "implication" is a direct commandment, under the circumstances not particularly expressed.

Paul implies people should never marry.

John implies if you sin at all, your not saved (1st John).

I think you're on thin ice with this.

Slightly, yes. Another example could be that Rahab was a harlot, but was it was counted to he for righteousness because she had faith, does this mean that prostitution is acceptable, or, Saul used a medium to contact the spirit of Samuel and i seemed to give him decent advice, are seances acceptable? While both of these examples actually have portions of scripture attesting to their wrong doing and polygamy does not, the relationship is not a far stretch.

Azaliah, I agree with your points.

What? Wow, you do? I was not expecting that.

NERD!

Rofl, guilty as charged.

Polygamy could be along the lines of slavery.

Very nice, I did not consider that, and I can see the correlation.

They apply to all.

I have heard this, I don't specificaly agree, simply put for your first argument, adultery is clearly defined as a sin, where polygamy is not. From my perspective the difference is clear about the condemnation of one, and the lack of condemnation of the other, the interesting part however, is that NEVER in scripture is polygamy mentioned overtly postively.

Lastly, the concepts before have been used for all Christians regarding the pastoral letters of Paul, other things are mentioned as well, for example a man being "blameless" and "ruling his own household". I have heard the same ministers that argue against polygamy also argue that, the "blameless" part really meant "having a good reputation", and the "ruling his own household well" part means that he "makes correct decisions regardless if his children follow them" and they say that I am stretching the truth....lol. It's a scary thing when the average layreader, learns to read Greek and Hebrew.

[JLVaughn]

Azaliah,

Exodus 21:10 gives the right of divorce to the first wife when the man marries a second.

In Malachi 2, the first wife (God) says she is going to divorce her husband (Judah) and sell him into slavery to get the return of her dowry that Judah spent to seduce his second wife.

If marriage is a covenant, then divorce is proof that the covenant was broken. It is not necessarily the breaking of that covenant, but it makes the breaking official.

If polygamy gives the wife the right of divorce, then the act of polygamy breaks covenant with the first wife.

[Azaliah]

Azaliah,

<a target="_blank" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Exodus%2021.10">Exodus 21:10</a> gives the right of divorce to the first wife when the man marries a second.

In Malachi 2, the first wife (God) says she is going to divorce her husband (Judah) and sell him into slavery to get the return of her dowry that Judah spent to seduce his second wife.

If marriage is a covenant, then divorce is proof that the covenant was broken. It is not necessarily the breaking of that covenant, but it makes the breaking official.

If polygamy gives the wife the right of divorce, then the act of polygamy breaks covenant with the first wife.

I see where you are going with this, another "logical" assertion, but not a bad one. Lets see what the bible say's about that (specifically Levictical Law).

Exodus 21:10 "If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. "

This would indicate that it would not break the covenant (or agreement) with the first wife, as this passage clearly indicates a commandment against doing so.

on a side note:
Leviticus 20:14 - Prevents a man from marrying a woman and her mother at the same time. This rule would be irrelevant if polygamy was a sin.

Esther 2:2-4 - Esther was atleast the second wife of the King. God orchestrated the salvation of the Jews through her marriage to a polygamist.

Jeremiah 3:6-10 - God portrays himself as a polygamist with more than one wife.

Matthew 25:1-13 - Parable of the 10 virgins, where Jesus has himself as the groom marrying 5 of the 10 virgins, making himself a polygamist in the parable.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Mentions that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, yet in Hebrews 11, we see many polygamists listed who inherited the Kingdom of God. Therefore polygamy is not adultery. (that's a big stretch, considering Rahad was listed there)

1 Samuel 1:2 & 13:14 - Elkanah has two wives. One of his wives, Hannah, gave birth to the prophet Samuel. Wouldn't he be an illegitimate child, if polygamy was a sin?

One argument I haven't seen yet (and is a really decent argument against it) is the argument of the "appearance of evil" as it would apply in this day and age, to polygamy being so closely associated with Mormonism.

[JLVaughn]

Azaliah,

What did Jesus say about divorce in the Law?

Contrary to popular belief, the Law does not forbid sin. It only places restrictions on it. You fool around with a virgin and you will pay a bride's price and possibly find yourself married to her at the end of a shotgun.

Now what first wife, can't make a case that she was "diminished" when her husband did that? You are not thinking this through. Exodus 21ff is case law. It is instructions to the judge, by way of examples, on how to judge. Malachi 2 demonstrates my understanding of Exodus 21:10 is correct. To say otherwise, says God has no right to divorce her adulteress husband. (That is weird, but that's what Malachi 2 says. God is the first wife.)

Malachi 2:14 states quite plainly that marrying another wife breaks covenant with your first wife. Exodus 21:10 gives the right to the wife whether to stay or to go. She is diminished by her husband's actions. He has broken covenant.

[Azaliah]

Azaliah,

What did Jesus say about divorce in the Law?

Contrary to popular belief, the Law does not forbid sin. It only places restrictions on it. You fool around with a virgin and you will pay a bride's price and possibly find yourself married to her at the end of a shotgun.

Now what first wife, can't make a case that she was "diminished" when her husband did that? You are not thinking this through. Exodus 21ff is case law. It is instructions to the judge, by way of examples, on how to judge. Malachi 2 demonstrates my understanding of Exodus 21:10 is correct. To say otherwise, says God has no right to divorce her adulteress husband. (That is weird, but that's what Malachi 2 says. God is the first wife.)

Malachi 2:14 states quite plainly that marrying another wife breaks covenant with your first wife. Exodus 21:10 gives the right to the wife whether to stay or to go. She is diminished by her husband's actions. He has broken covenant.

It's plausible, but from my viewpoint, not likely. The covenant (as you describe is a agreement) is not necessarily defined as being monogomous by it's very nature, unless of course it is pre- decided.

Also, to let you know Orthodox Judaism outlawed polygamy I think, a long time ago, not that it has any bearing on my thought.

Nonetheless to specifically note your argument here,

Malachi 2:14 states quite plainly that marrying another wife breaks covenant with your first wife. Exodus 21:10 gives the right to the wife whether to stay or to go. She is diminished by her husband's actions. He has broken covenant.

Yea, you are using prophetic utterings to some how justify law, not only can I not realy see the textual correlation, I hardly know what the prophet is talking about, and who he is talking to. It's at best "High Theology" the law always seemed to be "Bottom Line Theology" (clearly understood) so, not can I not agree, but I can't even make a case to disagree.

You have painted me a picture and asked me to see God in it, it's so abstracted I can't tell, but I can't really disagree either.

To say otherwise, says God has no right to divorce her adulteress husband. (That is weird, but that's what Malachi 2 says. God is the first wife.)

There have been many statements about that, and "personally" I do not believe that divorce is ever acceptable (may be necessary) but I am hard pressed to prove that divorce is honored by God by any means. That is another discussion. I have also never seen God put in the "female" position before, so I think I will have to review this passage more clearly.

[Lionroot]

UbiDubium asks two great questions.

Do you believe that it's ok for...2. One woman to have many husbands

This is a form of polygamy, called polyandry. While neither term is in the Bible the practice is discussed in the Book of Romans.

Rom 7:2 For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.

Ok, so for the Bible believer the issue of polyandry stops here. A woman may not have two Husbands.

Adultery in the OT was punishable by death.

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Now lets look at the other issue...

Do you believe that it's ok for ...1. One man to have many wives

This is a form of polygamy called polygyny. It is the only form practiced by the men of God in the Bible.

It was not punished at all. The practitioners were not rebuked.
Rather it was regulated.

Can a man do this and do right?
2Ch 24:2 And Joash did that which was right in the eyes of Jehovah all the days of Jehoiada the priest.
2Ch 24:3 And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters.

Compare and contrast. Polyandry brought death through justice. By contrast polygyny was a highlighted activity of someone that, "did that which was right in the eyes of Jehovah".

Unless one is going to say that the Biblical assessment of this man is wrong, then it must be an acceptable practice to God.

Which is much more important than what anyone thinks anyway.

God Bless,
Robert

[Aduro]

Slavery is not condemned by the Bible but we've found that it's simply better to do without it

You make me wish there was button you could push to kick someone over the internet. The type of "slavery" described in ancient Israel is NOT the kind that took place in 1700-1800s United States. Please look this up. I say that because I know you won't listen if I tell you, but try to come to terms with your error, if that should be possible.

Anyone,

Back in Biblical times, it was permittable for someone to take multiple wives as a means of providing for someone who would otherwise be doomed to a life of grinding poverty and/or starvation. In other words, a survival mechanism. Obviously, this is not justifiable in Western society, which has an abundance of everything compared to those times. To be a member of someone's household meant that you contributed to everyone's survival, which enabled you to better deal with the harsh world of old.

This works because the man was the head of the household during that time, while a woman was not. It would make no sense for a woman to have two husbands and enable them to better survive. Meanwhile, since a man is the head of his house, he could easily bring in more women and better their survival. So, I would have to agree with Lionroot. However, God clearly has instructed a man and a woman to be joined, so this kind of practice would be more of an exception rather than a rule.